Those who believe in evolution
The subject of this post is a little misleading, but I was constrained by the number of characters I could put into a subject line.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
0
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I believe in evolution. Did life start by a stroke of luck? I don't know. If there is a higher power, proof of it remains elusive to me. I'm talking real physical proof, not some words some human wrote down in a book. I don't believe we will ever know the whole truth one way or another. I have read the Bible but did not come away with any satisfaction or conclusion that God exists. I hope there is a God, but have yet to be presented positively certain proof that God exists. I do believe that if there is a God that he put evolution in motion. There is just to much proof of evolution for me to think it isn't happening. 0 -
I don't see how the theory of evolution and belief in God are mutually exclusive. I would have to say that those who fear evolution as a refutation of God's work are actually more lacking in faith than those who believe in it.
God created the Earth, but the language used to describe Creation was pure poetry. It can be inferred that evolution is merely one of God's mechanisms defined in some very unpoetic terms.[;)]0 -
I don't believe in evolution.
If it were real, deer and squirrel would look both ways before crossing the road and cats would be driving cars.0 -
civiliansoldier: quote: I hope there is a God,....
Why? What would such a thing add to your life if it existed? See this poem:
The Latest Decalogue
Thou shalt have one God only; who
Would tax himself to worship two?
God's image nowhere shalt thou see,
Save haply in the currency:
Swear not at all; since for thy curse
Thine enemy is not the worse:
At church on Sunday to attend
Will help to keep the world thy friend:
Honor thy parents; that is, all
From whom promotion may befall:
Thou shalt not kill; but needst not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Adultery it is not fit
Or safe, for women, to commit:
Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
When 'tis so lucrative to cheat:
False witness not to bear be strict;
And cautious, ere you contradict.
Thou shalt not covet; but tradition
Sanctions the keenest competition.[}:)][}:)][}:)]0 -
Belief in those far reaching theories such as evolution and the big bang does require a certain amount of faith (since we can never observe it happen), but not as much as belief in God. Whereas there is evidence to support evolution and the big bang, there is absolutely no evidence that there is a god (bible doesn't count since it was written by men, and heavily editted by various councils and committees). 0 -
Evolution is a remodeler. Intelligent design is the builder. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by shooter4
I don't believe in evolution.
If it were real, deer and squirrel would look both ways before crossing the road and cats would be driving cars.
Here in the KC area we have a lot of squirrels driving cars. [8D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Evolution is a remodeler. Intelligent design is the builder.
And that's because the design was poor.0 -
I do not "believe" in evolution or a 4.5 billion-year-old Earth.
I take emperical evidence which was discovered by people in the fields of biology, geology, etc. and make a judgement based on that evidence.
The facts simply do NOT point to a 6000 year-old Earth.
I do not know enough about macroevolution to debate the subject on an enlightened level (neither do those GBers who are against evolution though)
What many do not understand is that it is not the objective of science to disprove the existance of God or whatever. The objective of science is to use observations and emperical facts to find out what makes our world tick. Clearly some things will never be proven as 100% accurate, such as the beginning of the universe and the beginnings of life.
In fact there is no way to prove or disprove the existance of God using science. How would you set up such an experiment?0 -
KSUMarksman: quote: In fact there is no way to prove or disprove the existance of God using science. How would you set up such an experiment? I submit there is a way.
When one reads the Christian scripture, one is told that prayers will be answered (not may, will be)--"seek and ye shall find; ask and it shall be given to you."
Therefore, all one has to do is say a prayer and see if it comes true; if it doesn't it--there is no diety.
If it does, well then......[}:)][}:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Evolution is a remodeler. Intelligent design is the builder.
And that's because the design was poor.
I know you think your towering intellect knows all. And I do admit the design is not nearly as good as it could be. However, it is a "design". A design that does work. And even a poor "design," coming from nothing, is actually a kind of miracle. If you disagree, then please show me where anything else has ever come from "nothing." In addition, the "something" not only now exists but is better than the "nothing" that it came from.
Can you yourself pull that off?
If not then please shut up. Thank you.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
I don't see how the theory of evolution and belief in God are mutually exclusive.
i have thought the same thing. i think the whole debate is by people who only want their side to be right.0 -
Well lets see, without the moon we would have no seasons or ocean tides-
The life cycle of animals, people would be different or none existent.0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
The subject of this post is a little misleading, but I was constrained by the number of characters I could put into a subject line.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
Isn't it possible that a person could believe in evolution and the Big Bang and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and still believe in God? Wouldn't a solution that respects both proven science and personal religious beliefs be that God is responsible for creating the Universe (Big Bang), and that God set in place the laws of physics that guided the development of the Universe?0 -
By the way we currently measure time, the scientists are right, @4.5billion years. The process of natural selection, evolution, is a natural fact. By my standards there is good and evil. Beyond that, ???? My views on religions span from skepticism to disbelief. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
The subject of this post is a little misleading, but I was constrained by the number of characters I could put into a subject line.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
Isn't it possible that a person could believe in evolution and the Big Bang and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and still believe in God? Wouldn't a solution that respects both proven science and personal religious beliefs be that God is responsible for creating the Universe (Big Bang), and that God set in place the laws of physics that guided the development of the Universe?
No...this is not possible. Not if one truly believes in the inerrancy of Scripture. What you propose would be entirely possible for a new Believer...or someone who has not grown in their faith and knowledge, but I do not believe it is possible for someone who really understands Scripture...for a spiritually mature person to hold these views. Some will understand my post and some will not.0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
The subject of this post is a little misleading, but I was constrained by the number of characters I could put into a subject line.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
Isn't it possible that a person could believe in evolution and the Big Bang and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and still believe in God? Wouldn't a solution that respects both proven science and personal religious beliefs be that God is responsible for creating the Universe (Big Bang), and that God set in place the laws of physics that guided the development of the Universe?
Yes, that is possible, and most of the Christians I know believe just that. I don't think I was suggesting that Christian (or any other religious) faith and a belief in evolution were incompatible in my original post.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
The subject of this post is a little misleading, but I was constrained by the number of characters I could put into a subject line.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
Isn't it possible that a person could believe in evolution and the Big Bang and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and still believe in God? Wouldn't a solution that respects both proven science and personal religious beliefs be that God is responsible for creating the Universe (Big Bang), and that God set in place the laws of physics that guided the development of the Universe?
No...this is not possible. Not if one truly believes in the inerrancy of Scripture. What you propose would be entirely possible for a new Believer...or someone who has not grown in their faith and knowledge, but I do not believe it is possible for someone who really understands Scripture...for a spiritually mature person to hold these views. Some will understand my post and some will not.
So you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I have a few questions for you then:
1) Genesis says God created everything in six days. Do you believe that Heaven runs on a 24-hour clock (I guess Heaven revolves around its axis at the same rate as our planet does)? Do you believe that an omnipotent being can be bound by time as we know it? Also, why would an omnipotent being need to "rest" on the Seventh Day?
2) You trace the age of the Earth based on a lineage given in the Old Testament. Do you believe that this lineage is comprehensive? Do you believe that maybe some infomation was left out? If so, do you believe that Jesus went from being a teenager to a ~30-year old man overnight? After all, the Bible does not mention anything about Jesus' life for those years inbetween, so I guess they never happened if you are to read the Bible literally.
3) Since you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, maybe I can get your opinion of the following Biblical passages which I find quite alarming:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22: 28-30
Or Exodus 21, the part where it says that you can keep slaves but have to let the male slaves go after seven years, but the freed slave's wife and children still belong to you? The Bible even says that you are allowed to beat your slaves as long as you do not do any lasting damage, since they are your property.
Or Exodus 21:17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."
Or the littany of other death sentences in the Bible, like stoning unruly children to death, killing adulterers, killing anyone who doesn't worship the LORD, etc.
Do believe all these things are the literal word of God? Because I have quite a few other passages that don't exactly seem like something a loving God would want us to do.0 -
quote: someone who has not grown in their faith and knowledge, but I do not believe it is possible for someone who really understands Scripture...for a spiritually mature person to hold these views. Some will understand my post and some will not. No offense, but this seems to be coming from The Pilgrim. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote: someone who has not grown in their faith and knowledge, but I do not believe it is possible for someone who really understands Scripture...for a spiritually mature person to hold these views. Some will understand my post and some will not. No offense, but this seems to be coming from The Pilgrim.
...and here all this time, I thought you were the Pilgrim...0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
The subject of this post is a little misleading, but I was constrained by the number of characters I could put into a subject line.
So,
Subject: Those who believe that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, that life on earth originated as a random event, and that the diversity of life we see on the planet today is due to evolution by natural selection (and I know that there are at least six of you),
do you think that your world view requires any measure of faith? Please explain your answer, including an exposition of your world view. My opinion is available as a response in the following thread (near the end of the page):
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=230859&whichpage=2
If the 'subject' line above does not come close to describing your world view please refrain from posting, because this is a very specific question.
Isn't it possible that a person could believe in evolution and the Big Bang and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and still believe in God? Wouldn't a solution that respects both proven science and personal religious beliefs be that God is responsible for creating the Universe (Big Bang), and that God set in place the laws of physics that guided the development of the Universe?
No...this is not possible. Not if one truly believes in the inerrancy of Scripture. What you propose would be entirely possible for a new Believer...or someone who has not grown in their faith and knowledge, but I do not believe it is possible for someone who really understands Scripture...for a spiritually mature person to hold these views. Some will understand my post and some will not.
So you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I have a few questions for you then:
1) Genesis says God created everything in six days. Do you believe that Heaven runs on a 24-hour clock (I guess Heaven revolves around its axis at the same rate as our planet does)? Do you believe that an omnipotent being can be bound by time as we know it? Also, why would an omnipotent being need to "rest" on the Seventh Day?
2) You trace the age of the Earth based on a lineage given in the Old Testament. Do you believe that this lineage is comprehensive? Do you believe that maybe some infomation was left out? If so, do you believe that Jesus went from being a teenager to a ~30-year old man overnight? After all, the Bible does not mention anything about Jesus' life for those years inbetween, so I guess they never happened if you are to read the Bible literally.
3) Since you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, maybe I can get your opinion of the following Biblical passages which I find quite alarming:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22: 28-30
Or Exodus 21, the part where it says that you can keep slaves but have to let the male slaves go after seven years, but the freed slave's wife and children still belong to you? The Bible even says that you are allowed to beat your slaves as long as you do not do any lasting damage, since they are your property.
Or Exodus 21:17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."
Or the littany of other death sentences in the Bible, like stoning unruly children to death, killing adulterers, killing anyone who doesn't worship the LORD, etc.
Do believe all these things are the literal word of God? Because I have quite a few other passages that don't exactly seem like something a loving God would want us to do.
WF...I will attempt to answer your questions when I have some time to sit down and address them...some of this might require going back to the original Greek and Hebrew, so it's probably going to take some time...which I do not have at the moment.[:)]0 -
ECC: I am in the midst of reading the Pre-Nicine Gospels. So unless you are back to all of the originals, not just the accepted versions, your information is suspect.
Send me an email if you want a copy of the book.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
ECC: I am in the midst of reading the Pre-Nicine Gospels. So unless you are back to all of the originals, not just the accepted versions, your information is suspect.
Send me an email if you want a copy of the book.
BTW Hairy...You know better than that...that was a low blow and I've never stooped so far with you...other than the instance in this thread, which was in jest.[B)]0 -
I believe in evolution, but also believe in God. I think that evolution is God's engine. I don't care to speculate when God stepped back, be it at the big Bang, or more recently, but it is all in His plan; for if at the big Bang, how did THAT come to be without God?
Ergo, I'm an evolutionary creationist. God created all, but did so according to science. That's why I think that the earth IS 4.5 Billion years old- God would not attempt to create something to deceive our logic, such as have all our science say that the universe is billions of years old, and the earth somewhat younger but still very old. That would be petty of Him and he has better things to do than that.
Same thing applies to the Bible. "When I was a child...." When MAN wrote the Bible, it was with divine inspiration, but could NOT have been God's word directly, or it would violate human free will. And as it was with divine inspiration, that means man could make mistakes; God revealed himself and his plan within the realm of understanding available to the writers at the time. Now, man has progressed, and our latter day 'prophets' i.e. scientists have reached a new level of understanding, and have written a new level of the creation story- evolution. This is not to say that in 10 or 100 or 1000 years, we will not reach another level yet; and all may be true on some level, under God's plan.
I do have serious doubts, I admit, but I think God would rather have someone who uses the logic He gave him, and moves forward, questioning, than someone blindly obedient out of fear or dumb belief.
For those interested in reading further, I have included a text I wrote some time ago in another post. See at: http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2313860 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
ECC: I am in the midst of reading the Pre-Nicine Gospels. So unless you are back to all of the originals, not just the accepted versions, your information is suspect.
Send me an email if you want a copy of the book.
BTW Hairy...You know better than that...that was a low blow and I've never stooped so far with you...other than the instance in this thread, which was in jest.[B)]
Sorry if I offended you; my apology is offered as I meant no injury.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
KSUMarksman: quote: In fact there is no way to prove or disprove the existance of God using science. How would you set up such an experiment? I submit there is a way.
When one reads the Christian scripture, one is told that prayers will be answered (not may, will be)--"seek and ye shall find; ask and it shall be given to you."
Therefore, all one has to do is say a prayer and see if it comes true; if it doesn't it--there is no diety.
If it does, well then......[}:)][}:)]
I used to pray for a sign too, but then I saw this:
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. -Isaiah 59:1-2.
The only prayer God hears coming from the unsaved is when he/she is asking to be saved. I know, because I tried many times before being saved, and never got an answer. However, I have had many answers after being saved, according to the verse you mentioned before, which is referring to Christians.0 -
Diehard4: I find it amusing that you use the OT to justify not answering prayers and then turn around and use the NT (from where I quote) to say the deity does answer prayers.
I guess that is why Christianity is termed a mystery religion as is/was Mithra.0
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