Thoughts on terrorism and WW 2
This came in an email, and may well have been posted before. I didn't feel like going through and fixing the misspells and punctuation, etc.
SOME OF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT NEARLY EVERY FAMILY IN
AMERICA WAS GROSSLY AFFECTED BY WW II . MOST OF YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE
RATIONING OF MEAT, SHOES, GASOLINE, AND SUGAR. NO TIRES FOR OUR
AUTOMOBILES, AND A SPEED LIMIT OF 35 MILES AN HOUR ON THE ROAD, NOT TO
MENTION, NO NEW AUTOMOBILES. READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT HOW WE WOULD
REACT TO BEING TAKEN OVER BY FOREIGNERS IN 2007.
This is an EXCELLENT essay . Well thought out and presented.
Historical Significance
Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and
hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat. The Nazis had
sunk more than 400 British ships in their convoys between England and
America taking food and war materials .
At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most
Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war .
Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 , and in outrage
Congress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the following day on
Germany , who had not yet attacked us . It was a dicey thing . We had
few allies .
France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly
aligned itself with its German occupiers . Germany was certainly not an
ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in
Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and
controlling all of Asia.
Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and
Mexico , as launching pads to get into the United States over our
northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of
Asia and Europe.
America 's only allies then were England , Ireland , Scotland , Canada ,
Australia, and Russia . That was about it All of Europe, from Norway to
Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under the Nazi heel .
The US was certainly not prepared for war. The US had drastically
downgraded most of its military forces after WW I because of the
depression, so that at the outbreak of WW II, Army units were training
with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank"
painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks A huge chunk of
our Navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.
Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600
million in gold bullion in the Bank of England (that was actually the
property of Belgium ) given by Belgium to England to carry on the war
when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact).
Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to
oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble
the next day just to prove they could .
Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of
staggering losses and the near decimation of its Royal Air Force in the
Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only
because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively
minor threat that could be dealt with later. Hitler, first turned his
attention to Russia, in the late summer of 1940 at a time when England
was on the verge of collapse.
Ironically, Russia saved America 's butt by putting up a desperate fight
for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at
Germany .
Russia lost something like 24,000,000 people in the sieges of Stalingrad
and Moscow alone . . . 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly
civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000 soldiers
Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire
war effort against the Brits, then America. If that had happened, the
Nazis could possibly have won the war .
All of this has been brought out to illustrate that turning points in
history are often dicey things. Now, we find ourselves at another one
of those key moments in history.
There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants,
and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or
chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world .
The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs --
they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam,
should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the
world. To them, all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be
killed, enslaved, or subjugated . They want to finish the Holocaust,
destroy Israel , and purge the world of Jews . This is their mantra .
(goal)
There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part
not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and
its Reformation, but it is not yet known which side will win -- the
Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.
If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control
the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US , European, and Asian
economies.
The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an
OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC
dominated by the Jihadis. Do you want gas in your car? Do you want
heating oil next winter? Do you want the dollar to be worth anything?
You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the
Islamic Reformation wins.
If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who
believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, live in
peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into
the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade
away. A moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.
We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the
Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the
Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We can't do
it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at
a time and place of our choosing . . . . . . . . in Iraq Not in New
York , not in London , or Paris or Berlin , but in Iraq, where we are
doing two important things.
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly
involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack or not, it is undisputed that
Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades
Saddam is a
terrorist! Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction,
responsible
for the deaths of probably more than a 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000
Iranians .
(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic
terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad
people,
and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a
good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a
catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an
outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East
for as long as it is needed .
WW II, the war with the Japanese and German Nazis, really began with a
"whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with
the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before
the US joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and
was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to
get those countries reconstructed and running on their own a gain . . .
a 27 year war.
WW II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full
year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion
dollars. WW II cost America more than 400,000 soldiers killed in
action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.
The Iraq war has, so far, cost the United States about $160,000,000,000,
which is roughly what the 9/11 terrorist attack cost New York. It has
also cost about 3,000 American lives, which is roughly equivilant to
lives that the Jihad killed (within the United States) in the 9/11
terrorist attack .
The cost of not fighting and winning WW II would have been unimaginably
greater -- a world dominated by Japanese Imperialism and German Nazism .
This is not a 60-Minutes TV show, or a 2-hour movie in which everything
comes out okay . The real world is not like that. It is messy,
uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. It always has been, and
probably always will be .
The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism
until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore
it .
If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we
have an ally, like England , in the Middle East, a platform, from which
we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history
of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and
civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates to conquer the
world.
The Iraq War is merely another battle in this ancient and never ending
war.
Now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear
weapons. Unless some body prevents them from getting them.
We have four options:
1 . We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
2 . We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which
may be as early as next year, if Iran 's progress on nuclear weapons is
what Iran claims it is).
3 . We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle
East now; in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in
America.
OR
4 . We can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is
more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated
France and Germany and possibly most of the rest of Europe. It will, of
course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.
If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or
grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the
Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.
The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes,
cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society
and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win . The pacifists
always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them
Remember, perspective is every thing, and America 's schools teach too
little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young
American mind.
The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came
down in 1989; forty-two years!
Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and
from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany !
World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation,
and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan World War II
resulted in the death of more than 50,000,000 people, maybe more than
100,000,000 people, depending on which estimates you accept.
The US has taken more than 3,000 killed in action in Iraq.. The US took
more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944 , the
first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism.
In WW II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of
the individual battles of WW II lost more Americans than the entire Iraq
war has done so far .
The stakes are at least as high A world dominated by representative
governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . .
or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the
Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law) .
It's difficult to understand why the average American does not grasp
this.
They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but
evidently not for Iraqis.
"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America , where
it's safe.
Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran , Syria , Iraq ,
Sudan , North Korea , in the places that really need peace activism the
most?
I'll tell you why! They would be killed!
The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc . , but if the Jihad wins,
wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc.
Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side
of their own worst enemy!
SOME OF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT NEARLY EVERY FAMILY IN
AMERICA WAS GROSSLY AFFECTED BY WW II . MOST OF YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE
RATIONING OF MEAT, SHOES, GASOLINE, AND SUGAR. NO TIRES FOR OUR
AUTOMOBILES, AND A SPEED LIMIT OF 35 MILES AN HOUR ON THE ROAD, NOT TO
MENTION, NO NEW AUTOMOBILES. READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT HOW WE WOULD
REACT TO BEING TAKEN OVER BY FOREIGNERS IN 2007.
This is an EXCELLENT essay . Well thought out and presented.
Historical Significance
Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and
hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat. The Nazis had
sunk more than 400 British ships in their convoys between England and
America taking food and war materials .
At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most
Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war .
Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 , and in outrage
Congress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the following day on
Germany , who had not yet attacked us . It was a dicey thing . We had
few allies .
France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly
aligned itself with its German occupiers . Germany was certainly not an
ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in
Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and
controlling all of Asia.
Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and
Mexico , as launching pads to get into the United States over our
northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of
Asia and Europe.
America 's only allies then were England , Ireland , Scotland , Canada ,
Australia, and Russia . That was about it All of Europe, from Norway to
Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under the Nazi heel .
The US was certainly not prepared for war. The US had drastically
downgraded most of its military forces after WW I because of the
depression, so that at the outbreak of WW II, Army units were training
with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank"
painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks A huge chunk of
our Navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.
Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600
million in gold bullion in the Bank of England (that was actually the
property of Belgium ) given by Belgium to England to carry on the war
when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact).
Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to
oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble
the next day just to prove they could .
Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of
staggering losses and the near decimation of its Royal Air Force in the
Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only
because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively
minor threat that could be dealt with later. Hitler, first turned his
attention to Russia, in the late summer of 1940 at a time when England
was on the verge of collapse.
Ironically, Russia saved America 's butt by putting up a desperate fight
for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at
Germany .
Russia lost something like 24,000,000 people in the sieges of Stalingrad
and Moscow alone . . . 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly
civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000 soldiers
Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire
war effort against the Brits, then America. If that had happened, the
Nazis could possibly have won the war .
All of this has been brought out to illustrate that turning points in
history are often dicey things. Now, we find ourselves at another one
of those key moments in history.
There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants,
and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or
chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world .
The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs --
they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam,
should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the
world. To them, all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be
killed, enslaved, or subjugated . They want to finish the Holocaust,
destroy Israel , and purge the world of Jews . This is their mantra .
(goal)
There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part
not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and
its Reformation, but it is not yet known which side will win -- the
Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.
If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control
the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US , European, and Asian
economies.
The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an
OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC
dominated by the Jihadis. Do you want gas in your car? Do you want
heating oil next winter? Do you want the dollar to be worth anything?
You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the
Islamic Reformation wins.
If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who
believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, live in
peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into
the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade
away. A moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.
We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the
Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the
Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We can't do
it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at
a time and place of our choosing . . . . . . . . in Iraq Not in New
York , not in London , or Paris or Berlin , but in Iraq, where we are
doing two important things.
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly
involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack or not, it is undisputed that
Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades
Saddam is a
terrorist! Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction,
responsible
for the deaths of probably more than a 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000
Iranians .
(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic
terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad
people,
and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a
good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a
catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an
outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East
for as long as it is needed .
WW II, the war with the Japanese and German Nazis, really began with a
"whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with
the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before
the US joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and
was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to
get those countries reconstructed and running on their own a gain . . .
a 27 year war.
WW II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full
year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion
dollars. WW II cost America more than 400,000 soldiers killed in
action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.
The Iraq war has, so far, cost the United States about $160,000,000,000,
which is roughly what the 9/11 terrorist attack cost New York. It has
also cost about 3,000 American lives, which is roughly equivilant to
lives that the Jihad killed (within the United States) in the 9/11
terrorist attack .
The cost of not fighting and winning WW II would have been unimaginably
greater -- a world dominated by Japanese Imperialism and German Nazism .
This is not a 60-Minutes TV show, or a 2-hour movie in which everything
comes out okay . The real world is not like that. It is messy,
uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. It always has been, and
probably always will be .
The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism
until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore
it .
If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we
have an ally, like England , in the Middle East, a platform, from which
we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history
of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and
civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates to conquer the
world.
The Iraq War is merely another battle in this ancient and never ending
war.
Now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear
weapons. Unless some body prevents them from getting them.
We have four options:
1 . We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
2 . We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which
may be as early as next year, if Iran 's progress on nuclear weapons is
what Iran claims it is).
3 . We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle
East now; in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in
America.
OR
4 . We can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is
more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated
France and Germany and possibly most of the rest of Europe. It will, of
course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.
If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or
grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the
Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.
The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes,
cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society
and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win . The pacifists
always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them
Remember, perspective is every thing, and America 's schools teach too
little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young
American mind.
The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came
down in 1989; forty-two years!
Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and
from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany !
World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation,
and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan World War II
resulted in the death of more than 50,000,000 people, maybe more than
100,000,000 people, depending on which estimates you accept.
The US has taken more than 3,000 killed in action in Iraq.. The US took
more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944 , the
first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism.
In WW II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of
the individual battles of WW II lost more Americans than the entire Iraq
war has done so far .
The stakes are at least as high A world dominated by representative
governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . .
or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the
Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law) .
It's difficult to understand why the average American does not grasp
this.
They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but
evidently not for Iraqis.
"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America , where
it's safe.
Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran , Syria , Iraq ,
Sudan , North Korea , in the places that really need peace activism the
most?
I'll tell you why! They would be killed!
The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc . , but if the Jihad wins,
wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc.
Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side
of their own worst enemy!
0
-
quote:America 's only allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia . That was about it All of Europe, from Norway to Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under the Nazi heel.Yeah.... 'cause China doesn't really count. They're not, you know... white.
And Ireland... they count even though they were neutral during World War II.
Other than that, this has been busted so many times it's not worth repeating.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tapwater
This came in an email, and may well have been posted before. I didn't feel like going through and fixing the misspells and punctuation, etc.
SOME OF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT NEARLY EVERY FAMILY IN
AMERICA WAS GROSSLY AFFECTED BY WW II . MOST OF YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE
RATIONING OF MEAT, SHOES, GASOLINE, AND SUGAR. NO TIRES FOR OUR
AUTOMOBILES, AND A SPEED LIMIT OF 35 MILES AN HOUR ON THE ROAD, NOT TO
MENTION, NO NEW AUTOMOBILES. READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT HOW WE WOULD
REACT TO BEING TAKEN OVER BY FOREIGNERS IN 2007.
This is an EXCELLENT essay . Well thought out and presented.
Historical Significance
Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and
hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat. The Nazis had
sunk more than 400 British ships in their convoys between England and
America taking food and war materials .
At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most
Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war .
Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 , and in outrage
Congress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the following day on
Germany , who had not yet attacked us . It was a dicey thing . We had
few allies .
France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly
aligned itself with its German occupiers . Germany was certainly not an
ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in
Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and
controlling all of Asia.
Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and
Mexico , as launching pads to get into the United States over our
northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of
Asia and Europe.
America 's only allies then were England , Ireland , Scotland , Canada ,
Australia, and Russia . That was about it All of Europe, from Norway to
Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under the Nazi heel .
The US was certainly not prepared for war. The US had drastically
downgraded most of its military forces after WW I because of the
depression, so that at the outbreak of WW II, Army units were training
with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank"
painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks A huge chunk of
our Navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.
Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600
million in gold bullion in the Bank of England (that was actually the
property of Belgium ) given by Belgium to England to carry on the war
when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact).
Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to
oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble
the next day just to prove they could .
Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of
staggering losses and the near decimation of its Royal Air Force in the
Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only
because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively
minor threat that could be dealt with later. Hitler, first turned his
attention to Russia, in the late summer of 1940 at a time when England
was on the verge of collapse.
Ironically, Russia saved America 's butt by putting up a desperate fight
for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at
Germany .
Russia lost something like 24,000,000 people in the sieges of Stalingrad
and Moscow alone . . . 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly
civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000 soldiers
Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire
war effort against the Brits, then America. If that had happened, the
Nazis could possibly have won the war .
All of this has been brought out to illustrate that turning points in
history are often dicey things. Now, we find ourselves at another one
of those key moments in history.
There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants,
and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or
chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world .
The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs --
they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam,
should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the
world. To them, all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be
killed, enslaved, or subjugated . They want to finish the Holocaust,
destroy Israel , and purge the world of Jews . This is their mantra .
(goal)
There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part
not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and
its Reformation, but it is not yet known which side will win -- the
Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.
If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control
the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US , European, and Asian
economies.
The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an
OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC
dominated by the Jihadis. Do you want gas in your car? Do you want
heating oil next winter? Do you want the dollar to be worth anything?
You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the
Islamic Reformation wins.
If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who
believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, live in
peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into
the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade
away. A moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.
We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the
Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the
Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We can't do
it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at
a time and place of our choosing . . . . . . . . in Iraq Not in New
York , not in London , or Paris or Berlin , but in Iraq, where we are
doing two important things.
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly
involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack or not, it is undisputed that
Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades
Saddam is a
terrorist! Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction,
responsible
for the deaths of probably more than a 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000
Iranians .
(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic
terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad
people,
and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a
good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a
catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an
outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East
for as long as it is needed .
WW II, the war with the Japanese and German Nazis, really began with a
"whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with
the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before
the US joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and
was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to
get those countries reconstructed and running on their own a gain . . .
a 27 year war.
WW II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full
year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion
dollars. WW II cost America more than 400,000 soldiers killed in
action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.
The Iraq war has, so far, cost the United States about $160,000,000,000,
which is roughly what the 9/11 terrorist attack cost New York. It has
also cost about 3,000 American lives, which is roughly equivilant to
lives that the Jihad killed (within the United States) in the 9/11
terrorist attack .
The cost of not fighting and winning WW II would have been unimaginably
greater -- a world dominated by Japanese Imperialism and German Nazism .
This is not a 60-Minutes TV show, or a 2-hour movie in which everything
comes out okay . The real world is not like that. It is messy,
uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. It always has been, and
probably always will be .
The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism
until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore
it .
If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we
have an ally, like England , in the Middle East, a platform, from which
we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history
of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and
civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates to conquer the
world.
The Iraq War is merely another battle in this ancient and never ending
war.
Now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear
weapons. Unless some body prevents them from getting them.
We have four options:
1 . We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
2 . We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which
may be as early as next year, if Iran 's progress on nuclear weapons is
what Iran claims it is).
3 . We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle
East now; in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in
America.
OR
4 . We can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is
more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated
France and Germany and possibly most of the rest of Europe. It will, of
course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.
If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or
grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the
Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.
The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes,
cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society
and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win . The pacifists
always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them
Remember, perspective is every thing, and America 's schools teach too
little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young
American mind.
The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came
down in 1989; forty-two years!
Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and
from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany !
World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation,
and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan World War II
resulted in the death of more than 50,000,000 people, maybe more than
100,000,000 people, depending on which estimates you accept.
The US has taken more than 3,000 killed in action in Iraq.. The US took
more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944 , the
first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism.
In WW II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of
the individual battles of WW II lost more Americans than the entire Iraq
war has done so far .
The stakes are at least as high A world dominated by representative
governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . .
or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the
Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law) .
It's difficult to understand why the average American does not grasp
this.
They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but
evidently not for Iraqis.
"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America , where
it's safe.
Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran , Syria , Iraq ,
Sudan , North Korea , in the places that really need peace activism the
most?
I'll tell you why! They would be killed!
The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc . , but if the Jihad wins,
wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights,
democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc.
Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side
of their own worst enemy!
excellent post0 -
god bless our troops 0 -
...Well tap, it's a sad situation we are in at the moment.
...All this PC crap is killing our country.
...To a lib, anyone alluding to the fact that we ARE in a war, is seeing a terroist behind every tree, and "scared"; and we should just have "faith" that talking will work it all out.
...You "scared"?...didn't think so. Hell, the only thing Im "scared" of, is maybe living too long and getting all bed ridden or something.
...The lefties are trying to apply logic, to an illogical enemy.
...I still have faith that we, as Americans will come together, again as the Greatest Generation" did in it's time.
"What" brought the American people together from whence came the "Greatest Generation"?
...Three "Heads Of State" that conquered several countries, slaughtered and caused the deaths of several million (at the time) and destroyed cities and the economies of numerous countries; ...and stated the intention of bringing it all here, to finally rally the American people.
...Unfortuantely, we are growing close to a similar scenario, and indeed have fullfilled some of the neccessary requierements already; and are on the way to fullfilling the remainder of the equation, to rally the American people once again.
...A shame that so many have died, will die, and have to endure hardships unlike any they have ever dreamed before we can unleash our war machine to stamp out this plague.
...Wars suck, people die, but thats why it's called war. I would much prefer to have it fought on our terms; but that aint going to happen because the politicians are too busy being politicians and the libs are too busy trying to shove socialism down our throats.
...After the next massive attack(s), we will come together again and hopefully kill enough of these pure evil people to bring them to their knees, despite the PC crap of trying to fight a "clean, fast war" and the steady drumbeat from the left to "talk" while they stand in the rubble...
0 -
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
god bless our troops
+10 -
WW II, the war with the Japanese and German Nazis, really began with a
"whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with
the Japanese invasion of China.
For the most part, that essay was historically correct except for the above. It didn't start in '28, but rather it was just a continuation of WWI due to the Treaty of Versaille(sp?). France directly caused WWII by the harsh conditions imposed on Germany.
Maybe it's time to reassert pax Americana.[;)]0 -
Inaccuracies in this essay:
- Ireland was not an ally. They were neutral.
- China was an ally. Their presence is left out for some reason.
- Germany and Japan had plans for invading Canada and Mexico like we had plans for invading England and China (Case Red and Yellow respectively if I recall correctly).
- The U.S. was not prepared for war, but then again, very few people were. Germany, for example, was training with men holding cardboard cutouts of tanks prior to the war.
- Belgium held out for over two weeks. And the donation of Belgian gold did not save a bankrupt England - England's possession of her colonies gave her an immense amount of credit to draw upon. To say that she was bankrupt would be to say that the United States is bankrupt today.
- England was never on the verge of collapse. For one thing, the Luftwaffe was incompetent in its prosecution of the Battle of Britain and even if they had prevailed, the Germans had yet to devise a way to walk on water. The English Channel, the Royal Navy, and the inferiority of the Kriegsmarine combined with home turf advantage saved the British and to paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of their demise were premature.
- Russian losses at Stalingrad were roughly 1 million killed, captured, or missing. Moscow was never under siege. The Battle of Moscow cost the Russians 1.2 million. The grand total for the two battles is roughly 2 million - or one-twelfth of the supposed "24 million lost in those two battles alone."
- A mantra is an oft-repeated phrase, not a goal.
- quote:We have created a focal point for the battle at a time and place of our choosing . . . . . . . . in Iraq Not in New York , not in London , or Paris or Berlin , but in Iraq, where we are
doing two important things.Um, scratch London and add Madrid. The problem is that terrorism practices asymmetrical warfare that requires no frontlines or enemy formations to attack. They do not "need" to go where we tell them to. The war in Iraq has not prevented terrorist attacks from occurring in Europe, Africa, or Asia.
- U.S. involvement in China occurred before Pearl Harbor. For an essay that proposes to know so much about history, they certainly seemed to have forgotten that the American Volunteer Group under Claire Chennault was organized and approved prior to December 7, 1941.
- World War II may have cost more, but in terms of territory covered, the United States military had to be present in over 50% of the world against two of the world's most formidable militaries. Iraq is the size of California and the insurgency is estimated to contain roughly 20,000 irregulars.
- The Napoleonic Wars lasted from 1802-1815... hardly "the first half of the 19th Century."0 -
Hi guys,
Both very very good posts & replies..very true,wether 1 million or 24million..it happened.
BUT....make no mistake, whats happening ,as far as the muslim/middle east confrontations..there real,VERY real, & the end result to be a muslim world!!
Our history needs to remembered & all the kids in our schools tought the same way ,with 'disaplin' to our country's best wishes & culture,(english/american) or there will always be ........trouble..BIG trouble.
When in Rome as they say..'do as the romans do![;)]0 -
This is the fifth time in two years that this pile of right-wing illogic has been posted here.
Hardly worth the trouble to refute again.0 -
While it may contain a few inaccuracies, the first post is very good and does a good job of comparing todays war/battle with WW II.
Tobad there are some who just don't get it.0 -
Whether the annalogies are close or not there's no denying that there's still a lof of Jihad'ist out there that need to be killed! 0 -
I read the entire article. Comparing that whole situation to what's happening today is insane and rediculous.
In the beginning, 'WAR' was declared on a 'government'. The government of Iraq. That government quickly toppled. We destroyed, then re-built the country. Billions, nearing a trillion dollars later, we don't have much to show for it. We're friendly with their new government. We've tried training their men for Y-E-A-R-S!!
We are no longer at war with a government. It is an occupation of a country and has been for the last how many years? There's nothing left to happen but to lose more people to IEDs, PLANTED BY AN UNKNOWN ENEMY.
German tanks and planes represented a government. They had iron crosses and swasticas on the side letting our forces know, they are the enemy. The enemy didn't want to hide.
This entire occupation revolves around a handful of human beings in street clothes, with no machinery. They sneak out of the shadows once in a while to plant an IED in the road for a humvee to run over. Then, blend back into society. This can't be won by our military occupation.
This is going to take Iraqi police and their government forces to handle the mess. Just like our police and SWAT teams handle our problems. Nobody's here doing it for us.
Next, it's going to take intolerance. Our boarders are wide open. The Bush administration's policy (and the American people for that matter) is to leave the boarders wide open. We invite EVERYBODY to come here from ANYWHERE. We're wide open.
The occupation of Iraq doesn't stop any unknown terrorist from Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Iran from coming over here and doing whatever they want. We're just fortunate they haven't decided to do anything.
Until our government gets serious about protecting our own land, we're wasting our time. Anybody that wants to can stroll in here and be welcomed. That's the reality.
There's either tolerance or intolerance. There's nothing left in the middle. One way equals success. One way equals failure. We're too politically correct to go for success so we are doomed for failure. Period.0 -
Its funny if you look into a lot of todays problems and they orginate from the two World Wars. And what makes it funnier is that we created a lot of these problems. For instance the Korean issue came about after WWII because of the the Japs did. If you look into the Middle East today a lot issues is because of us. After WWII we took and divided up Israel, thus the hot bed over there. If you look at the Balkans (ie. bosinia, crotatia, etc.) we divided those up in WWI and they still are an issue today.
Yes we have won all of these wars, but every war we have won we are still dealing with today because of how we have dealt with our victories.0 -
"Quote: " Its funny if you look into a lot of todays problems and they orginate from the two World Wars. And what makes it funnier is that we created a lot of these problems. For instance the Korean issue came about after WWII because of the the Japs did. If you look into the Middle East today a lot issues is because of us. After WWII we took and divided up Israel, thus the hot bed over there. If you look at the Balkans (ie. bosinia, crotatia, etc.) we divided those up in WWI and they still are an issue today.
Yes we have won all of these wars, but every war we have won we are still dealing with today because of how we have dealt with our victories".. Just kind of curious. How did "WE" took and divided up Isreal when this ground was under British Manate for a long time? A U.N gave it to the Jews around 1947 or so. Please be carefull
of these "we's" if you include the U.S..0 -
Tapwater: Great post!! Maybe a few things arent quite true, I dont really know, but still hits the 10 ring. Yes, born in 1926 I see the same damn thing happening here now. As per usual we will wait until it is too late to truely prepare. Same as in 1941. For a nation of over 300,000,000 people our Military force is pittiful. Soft living, good times, and some easy money are our downfall. Who here wants to worry or fight to keep our country free. Very few. Just leave it up to a very few poorly paid G.I.'s for now who are doing a job many should be doing. My guess is that we have about 1,500,00 military in a population of 300,000,000 against what we had in WW 2 of a population of 150,000,000 with 16,000,000 serving in the Military. As we will find out, too few, too late. Too few troops for what we have to cover, too many "rules of engagement" too many newspeople, and not enough backing from the "home front". I am damn glad I served my battle time back in the '40's. 0 -
...Like I said right off the bat, it's a C&P, it's probably been posted before and I'm not going through it with a fine tooth comb to correct any inaccuracies.
...EMM....Germany was not the only one training with cardboard and plywood cutouts and trucks painted "tank". So were we.
...Joe...thanks for the compliment, but as I said, it's a C&P, I didn't author it and there are some inaccuracies. One certainly cannot draw a straight parrallel between the war on terror and WW 2. No two wars are fought in the same, exact way, or for the same, exact reasons. That being said, apathy, closed minds or blind allegiance usually result in failure.
...Was it Yamamoto who said: "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve" ?....Or something to that effect. We could use some of that resolve, now, sixty five years later.0 -
victors write the history...what we are not taught at school is the russians were responsible for winning the war, not the US or english, they only jumped in to gain part of europe off the Russians.
just like before world war 2 started there was peace and people were disarming...at the moment russia is arming, new subs, new missiles, new bunkers, 21 million army...0 -
I thought this would go in a different direction from the title of the post. We would do well to think that we sponsored this type of warfare during WW II & now it is comming back to bite us in the a$$.
We made so much of how our enemies arrested, tortured & killed partisans & now we see those same accusations directed toward us.0 -
Quote: "I thought this would go in a different direction from the title of the post. We would do well to think that we sponsored this type of warfare during WW II & now it is comming back to bite us in the a$$.
We made so much of how our enemies arrested, tortured & killed partisans & now we see those same accusations directed toward us."
Seems strange that we had over 60 years with the 3 Axis countries we fought in WW 2. I sure didnt see them "biting us in the azz very much". And just how many of these so called"partisans" have we actually killed and actually tortured. Lets now look at the AXIS during WW 2 and see how many civilians and soldiers they captured killed, tortured and starved. Granted, I only saw one (Dachau) of the many "death camps" on the day of its capture, but in Germany alone there were more. Not to mention the infamous prison camps in Japan, along with the "Bataan Death March' . And you think these are a comparison for azz biting??0 -
While WWII and the current struggle are certainly not identical or even close in resemblence (in many ways), IMHO we should all look even further back into history at the civilizations (powers) that have existed -- Eqypt, Rome, etc. While I make no claim to be a historian, it seems to me that when a "power" (the people) fails to support of its military, the end looms on the horizon. Differences of opinions and differences in goals have always existed within the human population and do so between groups of persons today. While we would all like to have a peaceful world where we could pursue making our living, raising our families, shooting our guns, etc. with outside interference, we each want "this peaceful world" to be the way that we want it ---- not the way someone different may want it. Therein lies the problem.
If we want "this peaceful world" to be "our way," be had better be ready and able to make sure that it happens. And to make it happen "our way" may not be peaceful. Peace is always temporary --- has always been and will likely continue to be only temporary. There have always been those who are ready and willing to fight and die to "get their way." We had better be as prepared if we want to keep "out way."
I personally have a serious problem with the manor in which our armed forces are required to fight battles --- the rules of engagement. We cannot shoot there, we cannot do this, we can only respond if ???, etc. Many years ago when I was given a little instruction on surviving grade school, my father told me that the rules about fighting were that there are no rules. If you hurt them enough, they will be likely to leave you alone.
If our military volunteers are carrying loaded weapons for the purpose of engaging those who resist our occupation of a tract of real estate, IMHO they deserve latitude and flexibility in carrying out their objective. Certainly, I do not propose that they conduct themselves in the manner of the Japanese in WWII, but I also do not expect them to wear "kid gloves." If we are going to have them over there, TURN THEM LOOSE!!!! Otherwise, we should have kept them at home.
I have the same thoughts about the conduct of the wars in Viet Nam and Korea. If you fight a limited war, you cannot win. The other side, if motivated, will out last you. They do not have to defeat you, just out last you --- the end results is that they win. With the population (and our elected representatives) in this country prone to require us to win or to "give up" quickly, it is not hard for them to outlast us.
Now that I have vented, thanks for allowing it.0 -
One more OLD THREAD dredged up.
Doug0 -
Maybe a few things arent quite true, I dont really know, but still hits the 10 ring.
Hmmmmm, doesn't somebody else work by that sort of logic? Somebody who lives somewhere on Pennsylvania Avenue. . .0
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