School lockdowns. Do they always makes sense?
I am a public high school teacher. We went into "lockdown" for almost 2 hours. My campus is divided between two buildings, building A up on the hill and building B about 5 minutes down the hill. I am in A. After the lockdown, we were told that what had been found was a suspicious package. The package turned out to be someone's papers. The package was in building B. Rather than arrange for those of us in A to evacuate or escape, we are locked in, told NOTHING, and huddle waiting to be shot or saved...yes we are a "gun free zone...." If the kids start making death lists on the bathroom walls, again, or calling in bomb threats, we'll be locked in our rooms until June.
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Fear, combined with the lack of a viable and well-thought-out procedure, regular mock drills, and clearly-defined contingency plans make lockdowns the choice of school officials who live in the constant dread of litigation from parents and prosecution from our system.
Better to batten down the hatches and wait it out than to actually be proactive and risk getting out or to an area of safety.
The answer is not a simple one for sure but at some point, our society has to forego litigation and the incessant armchair quarterbacking so as to underwrite and embrace proven and accepted methods that will address and handle these unfortunate events with as high a success and safety rate as is possible.
Just my 2 cents on a difficult subject.0 -
Lockdowns should be for tornadoes, not a bomb threat or random wacko. Common sense sez GTF OUT !!!!!! 0 -
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NOTPARS: Yes, lockdowns make sense, until a better system is implemented. As a teacher, you understand that your first and most important duty is to protect the students. Safety must be the first and foremost duty of anyone entrusted to care for another person - child or adult.
Compliance with lockdowns make sense if a teacher wants to keep their job. Does it make sense to suspend two students for fighting, when only one started it? No, but to keep from having lawsuits, yes. Does it make sense to teach that the Confederate Flag is a terrorist symbol by bowing to the Al and Jesse Hos? No, but to keep from having lawsuits, yes.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SCorvers
Lockdowns should be for tornadoes, not a bomb threat or random wacko. Common sense sez GTF OUT !!!!!!
[:D][:D][:D] That's true, but it will never happen, if you ask me.0 -
I'm the one who instructs my kids what to do if they're in school and hear shots fired in the building.
They're told to immediately pick up a chair and break the window, exit the building and run far away. We'll deal with any potential punishment for their actions later.0 -
the idea of the lockdown is based on the fallacy that SWAT will valiantly storm the school to take out the badguy. I don't know where they get this silly idea (perhaps from the heroic portrayal of movie action-hero cops) but at both Colubmine and this latest tragedy the police waited around until the badguys shot themselves.
I vote for trying to get the hell out of the building rather than waiting to be slaughtered. In both events (Columbine and Virginia tech) the psycho killers seemed to lack all but the most basic marksmanship abilities and preferred to murder their victims at near point blank range. Odds are they would not be able to hit running students at 20 yards. I'll take those survival odds over being shot point-blank in the face.
But like TXs said: it is preferrable to find alternate routes of evacuation. Many schools (at least here out west) are mainly signle-story buildings, so bust a window and bug out!0 -
Doing a lockdown for all situations is easier than the other alternative. Locking people up in a building where it is suspected there is a bomb doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Then again running a fire drill when you suspect there is a sniper in the woods doesn't make a lot of sense either.
When I was at sea, we didn't fight a fire in the Engine Room the same way we fought a fire in the Galley or Combat Information Center. We came up with as many scenarios as possible and ran drills for those possibilities. We had drill monitors to through a little poop into the game from time to time to keep everybody flexible and thinking. If you drill the way you fight, you will fight the way you drill.
I don't know how much expense would be involved, but it seems to me the best solution would be to have a person with a smattering of common sense, knowledge of the local geography and the ability to research past problems and predict possible future problems, to study your situation and come up with scenarios and drill those scenarios.
Then again, it's a lot easier to just lock the doors.
My suggestion can't carry much weight, because it's coming from a man who doesn't have a problem with responsible adults being armed in school. I believe most of these young heroes intent on gaining attention by committing mass murder would rethink their grandiose plans if they knew there were the possibility of armed resistance.0 -
That's a fine post, James. I think our educational system mirrors our government where common sense is concerned. And, when one thinks of communist goals to render the American way of life useless, it lends some logic to situations where there appears to be none at all. 0 -
For Slow Hand, thanks, if I wish I could have said it as well as you. My concern, as always, I am responsible for these kids no matter what happens. Sure would like a fighting chance. The kids want the chance to escape (we are on the ground floor), if it comes to that, I have a bad back and could easily be knocked over while they get away if you know what I mean. By the way, our lockdown today in a different building? It was a suitcase found on a teacher's desk. She had never seen it before, thought it was suspicious, and it had electrical tape around some portion. So, she took it to a building security guy who then carried it to the police officer. He in turn called the police, they took it out to the track, and the robot blew it up. Had leather gloves and some papers inside, no more. 0 -
For SCOVERS: I'd have to agree. I was thinking we could have pre-planned escape routes, my gosh, we are right next to the State Police headquarters, so that we could keep all the kids safe and together, and they could call/text (you can't stop them these days) mom to let her know everyone is safe. Hopefully we will do more than just sit. I didn't know what happened in this case until several hours later when the kids told me. They always find out. 0 -
For Kimi, thanks, and you can rest assured that student safety is always paramount even when we do things that don't seem to make much sense. You're also right that no teacher is going to jeopardize his/her job by violating the policy. However, my point remains, implementing and maintaining a policy of waiting to be saved or shot is not the best option. There are options missing here. In addition, with a large sprawling campus like ours, in which the buildings are completely separate, forcing the entire campus into lockdown while a rampage occurs in a completely different building may not be the best option. I would contend that the ability to defend ourselves in someway, needs to be looked at. Until then, as you noted, we are stuck with what we have. 0 -
For TXs: My point exactly. When it comes down to it, and someone is going from room to room shooting people, and your kids are in my room down the hall, I'm sending them out the window. I'm staying or the last one out. I hope to greet the killer with a chair sandwich or die trying. I'll take my chances getting fired. When it comes down to it, I'm a parent and I'm going to act as you would want me to save your kids. 0 -
For KUmarksman: Thanks, I agree. I was an LEO before this job and I know the stakes and what is going to happen. The scene is frozen so no one can get in or out in order to contain the bad guy. Next, the bad guy and his whereabouts have to be ascertained and a plan to get at him developed. The existence of hostages complicates the situation immeasurably. In other words, as you so ably pointed out, no one is coming in to save anyone for a long time. In here, trapped with the bad guy, I want a chance to fight. Without giving up details, I have non-firearm related objects planted strategically around the room that might give me a chance to fight off someone while the kids scramble out the windows. Great post. 0 -
James RK, on the contrary, your opinion and observations are very good and very sensible...you make a heck of a lot of sense. We should plan scenarios based on the threat and not treat them all the same way. It is easier for a school to just lock things down. By the way, being sued is not always their number one concern...publicity, bad publicity, especially in an upscale community like this one is also important to the people who make the decisions....image... 0 -
Kimi, your post on government and goals is great. I couldn't agree more. It may be you are ultimately correct and that government won't do anything other than what they are doing now. Great post.
For all of those who posted, this was not just an exercise in me blowing off steam. I really want to know what you all think. Our kids are very upset and I am listening to them as well. I am hoping we can come up with some options that the powers to be will listen to and you all have been a big help. Great to be part of such a great forum.0 -
Is there any way to fortify the doors? The airlines have beefed up their cockpit doors, can't the doors be re-enforced with steel, stronger jams, remove windows, that sort of thing? Where I went to high school, a long, long time ago, I had several classes on 3rd and 4th floors. I could not imagine jumping out one of those but then again the worse thing that every happend at school was some senior whip-creamed a hallway and let a pig loose. 0 -
NOTPARS: Thank you for posing a question that deserves better options than what is currently available to protect students and all other people involved with education. You sound to me like you are in the right profession, and I am sure that your students and colleagues would agree with me on this point. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rickstir
Is there any way to fortify the doors? The airlines have beefed up their cockpit doors, can't the doors be re-enforced with steel, stronger jams, remove windows, that sort of thing? Where I went to high school, a long, long time ago, I had several classes on 3rd and 4th floors. I could not imagine jumping out one of those but then again the worse thing that every happend at school was some senior whip-creamed a hallway and let a pig loose.
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quote:Originally posted by KSUmarksman
the idea of the lockdown is based on the fallacy that SWAT will valiantly storm the school to take out the badguy. I don't know where they get this silly idea (perhaps from the heroic portrayal of movie action-hero cops) but at both Colubmine and this latest tragedy the police waited around until the badguys shot themselves.
Prior to Columbine, containing the situation to the entire building and waiting on SWAT to arrive was the rule laid down by most every agency. It was completely illogical and wasn't universally accepted by individual street cops. Prior to this incident I heard many who said they planned on making immediate entry, then taking out or at least fixing the bad guy's position if they ever responded to an active shooter situation. They'd made the personal decision to just deal with the administrative consequences later.
Post-Columbine training nationwide says for first responding units to immediately make entry, go directly for the shooter and ignore evacuating survivors or treating wounded, then eliminate him or at the very least contain him in as small of an area as possible. Sounds familiar.
I don't know any specifics, but the VT news footage I saw didn't show everyone setting up a perimeter and awaiting SWAT. Some logically remained outside to cut off the shooter's escape, but student's cell cameras showed that many of the first to arrive were inside the building pretty quickly. The problem was it didn't take this nutjob long to take out people who were hunkered down like sitting ducks.
Witnesses described the shooter as wearing some sort of vest "covered with magazines", but the VT officials are saying the responding officers never exchanged fire with the shooter. It sounds like he capped himself as soon as officers started closing in on him, which also served their purpose.0 -
The problem was also a two hour plus delay on behalf of approriate officials in acting responsibly, too. 0 -
In all fairness, a double murder involving a love triangle/jealous boy/girlfriend is not that uncommon (be it a beating to death, knife, or a gun). While it could have been avoided, the dissimilar location and crimes make it hard to Monday morning quarterback their response.
Killing a cheating girlfriend and the guy (which is what it looked like at first) has never lead to a school shooting (until now, to my knowledge).
I don't think the deadly and semi-random killings on campus could have been expected after such a limited and targeted killing of only 2 in the dorms.
Im sure those in power feel bad enough already they failed to act.
This is even dumber than blaming the president for missing the warning signs of 9-11 (but not as dumb as nagin and the govenor missing the signs of Katrina)0 -
what does sense have to do with anything govt or school related? 0 -
lockdowns are going to be hit and miss. An example is my wifes school. In order to lock the doors the teachers have to exit the room (doorknob locks)lock then re-enter. There is no way to secure the door from the inside. Some help that is. It will be changed soon. A discovery made when a recent drill was made was that if the fire alarm was activated all the doors locked form the outside and the police and fire dept couldn't get in. I basically told my wife lock yourself in then grab anything you can find as a weapon, letter opener, scissors, fire extinguisher etc. Even under lockdown you still must be prepared to defend yourself. 0 -
common sense says that when the law is wrong....freaking change it...Teacher... Get a gun and lead those kids to safety... Nuf said....
People who send their kids to a private school are making rules that keep teachers from protecting your public school kids. Of course teachers in thise private schools don't need guns with that armed guard at every door....0 -
NOTPARS: Check out Rack Ops post, "My University's response to Va Tech..." 0 -
The problem was also a two hour plus delay on behalf of approriate officials in acting responsibly, too.
Yeah, kimi, and I'm sure that you would have done just such a better job, wouldn't you? What exactly would the kimi plan have entailed? Well, first of all you would have told everybody that there was a madman on the campus killing people, and they should have all run for their lives.
And I'm sure that the 8 people trampled to death and the 12 people killed in car accidents as everybody raced around wouldn't have been your fault at all. And I'm sure that if you had put your plan in place, the guy surely wouldn't have shot anybody else because, well, because you put your plan in place and this fellow, being reasonable and all, would have just ignored all the students running across the grounds out in the open. He would have just given up.
And I'm sure that when you sent the whole campus into lockdown, nobody standing by the thousands of doors and windows across the Virginia Tech campus would have opened the door for a fellow student who was trying to get inside away from the shooter? Yeah, the shooter, a college-age kid with a backpack, would have stood out like a sore thumb and nobody would have allowed him into a dorm or classroom building. Yeah.
And I'm also sure that this young man, once your brilliant plan was implemented, would surely have not decided just to go somewhere else and kill a whole bunch of people. Because, after all, your plan would have just stopped him right in his tracks, right?
And I'm sure, kimi, that you have all sorts of experience running an institution of 35,000 people, and you are absolutely able to sift through the constant problems and issues and keep things running utterly smoothly. Oh wait, on the kimi plan, when a guy threatens his girlfriend, campus is locked down for two days. Oh, and a few days after that, when a student commits what sure looks to be suicide but could be murder, campus is again locked down for two days. A bomb threat the following week, another two days. Two days out of five the campus is in lock down, but I'm sure that everybody will still graduate on time and that enrollment will be great.
You're a loser, kimi, a Monday morning quarterback who doesn't have the common decency to be quiet and pray and grieve for these people. You don't realize that there is no way to prepare for this. You don't realize that if a homicidal maniac wants to go on a killing spree, there's no way to prevent it. You can't turn colleges into fortresses with walls topped with razor wire and metal detectors at the gates and daily room searches.
You're a loser, kimi, a person who's never had to make a tough choice or be responsible for others. You're so sure that somebody always must be to blame, and when something bad happens everybody should just sue, sue, sue. And you're too dumb to realize that the people who run Virginia Tech do so because they love education and students, and that the rest of their lives they will agonize everyday about this, and that that is worse than any silly lawsuit you're talking about.
So shut up, will you. The grownups have to put things back together.0 -
No they don't make sense unless you are trying to protect the detainees from a roving pack of mad dogs that cannot defeat the lockdown. As a human killer can. Or worse, if the killer is now "locked down" along with his intended victims.
Only at, for an example, day care center with nothing but children to protect would I USUALLY support a lockdown. Othwise, fully inform the people and let them make their own choices. Just as with owning/carrying a firearm for protection. Let those potential detainees of the lockdown be fully informed of what dangers is near and let them make their own decision. I don't like anyone, especially the government, deciding to play the part of the parent and tell you you have to stay inside for your own good and not tell you what is going on.
Besides, the authorities just are fond of saying and using the term "lockdown" because it is one of the few ways they can at least appear to have some power over the situation and perhaps even a solution. Lockdown sounds like a manly, strong move to combat the problem. But as in the case of this VA Tech murdered, whoever (him?) chained the exits actually did a "lockdown". A lockdown that locked the victims in with the murderer.
JMHO0 -
quote:Originally posted by mlincoln
The problem was also a two hour plus delay on behalf of approriate officials in acting responsibly, too.
Yeah, kimi, and I'm sure that you would have done just such a better job, wouldn't you? What exactly would the kimi plan have entailed? Well, first of all you would have told everybody that there was a madman on the campus killing people, and they should have all run for their lives.
And I'm sure that the 8 people trampled to death and the 12 people killed in car accidents as everybody raced around wouldn't have been your fault at all. And I'm sure that if you had put your plan in place, the guy surely wouldn't have shot anybody else because, well, because you put your plan in place and this fellow, being reasonable and all, would have just ignored all the students running across the grounds out in the open. He would have just given up.
And I'm sure that when you sent the whole campus into lockdown, nobody standing by the thousands of doors and windows across the Virginia Tech campus would have opened the door for a fellow student who was trying to get inside away from the shooter? Yeah, the shooter, a college-age kid with a backpack, would have stood out like a sore thumb and nobody would have allowed him into a dorm or classroom building. Yeah.
And I'm also sure that this young man, once your brilliant plan was implemented, would surely have not decided just to go somewhere else and kill a whole bunch of people. Because, after all, your plan would have just stopped him right in his tracks, right?
And I'm sure, kimi, that you have all sorts of experience running an institution of 35,000 people, and you are absolutely able to sift through the constant problems and issues and keep things running utterly smoothly. Oh wait, on the kimi plan, when a guy threatens his girlfriend, campus is locked down for two days. Oh, and a few days after that, when a student commits what sure looks to be suicide but could be murder, campus is again locked down for two days. A bomb threat the following week, another two days. Two days out of five the campus is in lock down, but I'm sure that everybody will still graduate on time and that enrollment will be great.
You're a loser, kimi, a Monday morning quarterback who doesn't have the common decency to be quiet and pray and grieve for these people. You don't realize that there is no way to prepare for this. You don't realize that if a homicidal maniac wants to go on a killing spree, there's no way to prevent it. You can't turn colleges into fortresses with walls topped with razor wire and metal detectors at the gates and daily room searches.
You're a loser, kimi, a person who's never had to make a tough choice or be responsible for others. You're so sure that somebody always must be to blame, and when something bad happens everybody should just sue, sue, sue. And you're too dumb to realize that the people who run Virginia Tech do so because they love education and students, and that the rest of their lives they will agonize everyday about this, and that that is worse than any silly lawsuit you're talking about.
So shut up, will you. The grownups have to put things back together.
Yes, I think I would have done a better job. And no, I'm not about to be quiet about a school administrator who has had two people killed at 7Am, and then 30 more two hours later, because he might have "thought" the killer had left the campus. If that's what you call an armchair QB, then you have no business being in charge of students, or anyone else for that matter.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
No they don't make sense unless you are trying to protect the detainees from a roving pack of mad dogs that cannot defeat the lockdown. As a human killer can. Or worse, if the killer is now "locked down" along with his intended victims.
Only at, for an example, day care center with nothing but children to protect would I USUALLY support a lockdown. Othwise, fully inform the people and let them make their own choices. Just as with owning/carrying a firearm for protection. Let those potential detainees of the lockdown be fully informed of what dangers is near and let them make their own decision. I don't like anyone, especially the government, deciding to play the part of the parent and tell you you have to stay inside for your own good and not tell you what is going on.
Besides, the authorities just are fond of saying and using the term "lockdown" because it is one of the few ways they can at least appear to have some power over the situation and perhaps even a solution. Lockdown sounds like a manly, strong move to combat the problem. But as in the case of this VA Tech murdered, whoever (him?) chained the exits actually did a "lockdown". A lockdown that locked the victims in with the murderer.
JMHO
I would think that this massacre will cause a great many changes to take place for the better, I would hope, at most all educational institutions.0
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