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beachmaster73.. slavery issue

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23 comments

  • kristov
    This would be an interesting one to match up with the often posted (several times each year) cut and paste about how there were virtually no taxes at all 100 years ago.
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  • bobski
    it is true that a lot of history has been twisted....but:

    no need to worry about the south. soon it will all be mexican, the northerners will have married all the southern women at their request to escape being hillbilly men slaves, and we'll all move back to new england and be happy. and because of global warming, it will be wonderful winter weather in dec.. with the north warmer, the south will be volcano sweating equator hot.

    yep, mexicans will be at home and southerners will be proud of the h**l theyre still living in.[:o)][:p]
    i figure i'll have enough to make up for what my great great great grandfather couldnt carry in his carpet in about 10 years. then its back to ice fishing and skating for me. nothing beats hiking in upstate new york, maine, and vermont, and not having to travel to get to it...just walk out the cabin.[:)]
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  • tomahawk
    won't be no ice fishing or skating if it gets that hot, skeeters will for shure invade y'all and i reckon y'all dont have a clue as to what to eat and rub on your skin to keep them away. as far as the wimmin folk, they'll be back ,their heart will always be in dixie.[:D][:D][:D][;)]
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  • woodshermit
    lorne, here's a question for you since you seem to be well-informed on the subject. Assuming there had not been a war, how do you think the slavery issue would have been resolved?
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by bobski
    it is true that a lot of history has been twisted....but:

    no need to worry about the south. soon it will all be mexican, the northerners will have married all the southern women at their request to escape being hillbilly men slaves, and we'll all move back to new england and be happy. and because of global warming, it will be wonderful winter weather in dec.. with the north warmer, the south will be volcano sweating equator hot.

    yep, mexicans will be at home and southerners will be proud of the h**l theyre still living in.[:o)][:p]
    i figure i'll have enough to make up for what my great great great grandfather couldnt carry in his carpet in about 10 years. then its back to ice fishing and skating for me. nothing beats hiking in upstate new york, maine, and vermont, and not having to travel to get to it...just walk out the cabin.[:)]


    What a joke, but I can understand the self agrandizing flatter coming from a bagger's line. [8D]
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  • v35
    I suspect it would have died out in the south as it did in New York, New Jersey and the other northern states. Immigration and economic downturns produced a workforce where men, women and children would work for subsistence and shelter. These events devalued slaves who were expensive investments at $600-1,000 per plus maintenance to keep up their market value.
    It's interesting to speculate where we'd be if the African slave trade never existed.
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  • Doc
    Slavery was not an issue?

    Um... then why was it that as states joined the Union in the years leading up to Civil War a negotiated agreement required that one slave state be added for each free state?

    Why was it that Lincoln ran on an abolitionist platform, and his election sparked the secession?

    Slavery was, in fact, the single greatest issue of the 1850s. Certainly there were other contributing factors dividing North and South, but it was slavery that drove the nation apart.
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  • gruntled
    It was not slavery but the stealing of slaves that caused the war.
    The Northerners would not keep their word (Why does that not surprise anyone?) that they made in the Missouri compromise. They encouraged slave stealing & refused to return people's legitimate property when it was discovered in Northern states.
    The tragedy is that Southerners were so trusting in the Damnyankees that they thought they were as honorable as they were. The South should have seceeded far earlier when the economic & population figures were not so unbalanced against them. Just a few years earlier would have made all the difference.
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  • dlrjj
    How anyone can even begin to argue that slavery was not an issue is completely beyond me. Have you not studied "Bleeding Kansas", the Dred Scott decision, looked at the Wilmot Proviso excluding slavery from territories captured from Mexico, or studied the series of Compromises in 1820, 1833, & 1850 at all?

    Here's James Buchanan's "State of the Union" address for 1860(date wrong in title). Please read the fourth paragraph, and then try to contend that slavery was not an issue until Lincoln made it into one. He deals with the issue of slavery and secession for most of the first part of his speech, and Lincoln wasn't even there yet. Get real. It was not the only issue, it may not have even been the main issue, but to argue that it was not an important issue is just plain silly - ask John Brown.

    http://www.geocities.com/presidentialspeeches/1860.htm?200715

    If slavery was not an issue until Lincoln made it one out of desperation during the war, please explain the "Cornerstone Speech" given by Alexander Stephens, the Vice President of the Confederacy several weeks before the firing upon Fort Sumter. Here is an excerpt that seems to refute that concept quite well.

    "The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

    Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind -- from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics; their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just -- but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

    In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.

    As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo-it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not, therefore, look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of his ordinances, or to question them. For his own purposes, he has made one race to differ from another, as he has made "one star to differ from another star in glory."

    http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/corner.html

    I have seen copies of that article on "25 Things to Know" so many times it has become ridiculous that it is still around and quoted. It has just enough elements of reality to attempt to lend it some credibility, but the salient points it tries to make are virtually all based on totally incorrect statements, or distortions of facts designed to advance an agenda.

    The easiest ones to disprove are the statements relative to the import taxes on cotton and the history of the income tax passed in 1861.

    Cotton was an exported item, not an imported one, and export taxes are specifically prohibited in the Constitution. This was done at the insistence of Southern delegates at the time the Constitution was being written and was covered in the "Commerce Compromise" which allowed taxes on imports, but not on exports.

    Don't even try to use the idea that cotton was imported from the South by the North since that is covered under Interstate Commerce laws as opposed to Intrastate Commerce, which was left to the states. The reason was because of taxes imposed on products imported by states from each other under the old Articles of Confederation and it was realized that this was a prescription for disaster and was prohibited, and still is today. The "Tariff of Abominations" was real as an import tax problem, but it had been reduced to 19% and was not the only cause by any stretch of the imagination.

    The income tax was not declared to be unconstitutional at that time, and a flat tax of three percent, that was later given two levels of progression (3% & 5%), was reduced at the end of the Civil War and allowed to lapse in 1872.

    Much of the rest of this treatise is not much more accurate, and what is accurate is often not applicable as an argument. What do Union war loans have to do with war causes?

    I lean strongly in the direction of State's Rights, and I think the historical precedent from New England at the Hartford Convention said the South likely had the legal right to secede, but don't try to rewrite historical reality just to change perception.[:)]
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  • Colt Super
    Altough Darren got back last week, his Brother, Doug II, is still in Afghanistan.

    D.
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  • Colt Super
    Dave (DaveW) is in the middle of clearing Pensacola, leaving the Navy after Proud Service, to begin his civilian life in Texas.

    I sure miss my Sons.

    D.
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  • tomahawk
    even after the emancipation proclamation the north still held slaves, as they had all through the war. even lincoln said if slavery were the issue he would not go to war but he could not tolerate a divided nation. most history books were wrote by conquerers as they still are. the whole truth never seems to come out, but what amazes me is the fact that a whole people was not even given the chance to elect whether to stay or go home. the fact stands that their own tribal cheifs sold or traded them to mostley dutch and british merchants who brought them here and sold them to slave traders thus these people were kidnapped and without given a chance had absolutely no way back. slavery of any kind is wrong but the fact remains it is still alive in the world today. look at the sweat shops in china, russia, africa, etc. etc. it is my opinion that the government uses this to work in their favor to outlaw things like the stars and bars, calling them racist when actually they are trying to cover up what they really stood for, the biggest being taxation without representation. sad indeed.
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  • tomahawk
    woodshermit i don't know. but i can tell you that around here the ex slaves were treated so well that they refused to leave master roberts plantation. they were each given land and remained loyal as sharecroppers and their desendants still live on the land to this day. i personally know most of the as we went to school together and i can say not a finer group of hard working folks will you find. and guess what,they have never let on to feel sorry for themselves and you have never heard singin until you've sat inside their church and listened to them. nor have you ever tasted vittles as good.[;)][;)][:D]
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  • renneck
    I love listening to civil war guys. That war was fought before your great great grandparents were born. NONE of you TRULY knows what really happened because you didn't live then. Why even bother arguing about it?
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  • tomahawk
    rennick because we never surrendered. the general had his fingers crossed[:D][:D][:D][:D][;)]
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  • dlrjj
    quote:Originally posted by lorne47
    even after the emancipation proclamation the north still held slaves, as they had all through the war. even lincoln said if slavery were the issue he would not go to war but he could not tolerate a divided nation. most history books were wrote by conquerers as they still are. the whole truth never seems to come out, but what amazes me is the fact that a whole people was not even given the chance to elect whether to stay or go home. the fact stands that their own tribal cheifs sold or traded them to mostley dutch and british merchants who brought them here and sold them to slave traders thus these people were kidnapped and without given a chance had absolutely no way back. slavery of any kind is wrong but the fact remains it is still alive in the world today. look at the sweat shops in china, russia, africa, etc. etc. it is my opinion that the government uses this to work in their favor to outlaw things like the stars and bars, calling them racist when actually they are trying to cover up what they really stood for, the biggest being taxation without representation. sad indeed.
    Really? Which Southern state was it that had no Representatives or Senators in Congress? Count how many of the Presidents had been from the South. Getting outvoted is not the same thing as not getting to vote.[:)]
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  • Colt Super
    I'm not sure for certain when Doug II will be home, but I sure hope all my Sons are finished with war. It has been a long worrisome time.

    D.
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  • p3skyking
    Whether or not slavery was an issue is not really important. The South and North disagreed on how to settle it.

    THEREFORE THE SOUTH WANTED TO SECEED FROM THE UNION.

    Having no legal device by which a state could seceed (the Constitution makes no mention of it), the North, under Lincoln, waged aggressive war to bring the Southern states under Federal control thus disregarding their sovreign rights.
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  • Colt Super
    The weather here today was pretty spectacular - mid 60s, bright sunshine and blue skies. It's supposed to rain over the weekend, but I really think(hope) that winter is behind us.

    D.
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  • tomahawk
    doug thank your sons for serving, i wish them well.
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  • zipperzap
    ... actually, the demise of bees can perhaps be accounted for by genetically
    designed plants that have an insecticide gene inserted into them.[8D]
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  • Colt Super
    Appreciate it.

    D.
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  • gruntled
    quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
    Whether or not slavery was an issue is not really important. The South and North disagreed on how to settle it.

    THEREFORE THE SOUTH WANTED TO SECEED FROM THE UNION.

    Having no legal device by which a state could seceed (the Constitution makes no mention of it), the North, under Lincoln, waged aggressive war to bring the Southern states under Federal control thus disregarding their sovreign rights.

    The Constitution does not mention it but the Articles of Confederation did. Since many of the same people were involved in writing both documents it should be obvious that the failure to include a provision prohibiting secession means that it is legal.
    Note also that all powers & actions not prohibited to the states
    are reserved to them. Like the Damnyankees cared anything about the Constitution since they also saw fit to deprive the people of their personal property without due process or any compensation.
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