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  • dcinffxva
    quote:Originally posted by RugerNiner
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w10.html


    Ruger,

    I know nothing about this particular case, but just an FYI, the Pagans are one of the top four notorious motorcycle gangs in the US preceeded by the Hells Angels, Outlaws and Bandidos.

    They are a semi-organized crime entity, and having had numerous dealings with them in the past, have absolutely nothing good to say about them.
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  • KSUmarksman
    sounds like someone should have turned an M-60 loose on the "officers", not "Hannibal" Smith style, but more liek Rambo style, ie. shoot to kill.

    how do the morons expect someone to put their hands up when the taser they just shot him with is causing all of his muslce cells to depolarize and contract??? morons...

    personally I wish I could have been watching with an RPK or M-249 SAW:
    *long burst of automatic fire*
    "whoops, my trigger finger slipped...oh no did I kill all of them...terribly sorry"

    yes I know thsi reply is uncharacteristically immature for me, but I cannot abide stormtrooper wannabes murdering someone because he did not "comply" while not in control of his own muscles
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  • elvjeep
    If these brave men in blue...black or whatever color these want-a be's wear , fear so much for their lives. They should work in nursery schools, maybe then they won't feel threatned. They're not Police Officers there common punks.
    But their lies and dastardly deeds will not go unpunished...There is a place set aside for the fallen angels and were not suppose to be for men. 2 peter2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished[:0]

    Anyone out there that's police or Military Knows that you do not have to follow an unlawful order.
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  • newtgingrich
    in all fairness i dont think the source is very crediable
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  • ElMuertoMonkey
    The problem is that a great many police officers belong to a new breed who subscribe to the motto "It's us versus them," with "them" meaning the rest of society.

    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.

    I do not blame all police officers - the majority are upstanding professionals with more guts than I've got... but the bad ones are so malignant as to engender a widespread mistrust of the police as a whole - which only serves to feed the violent cycle of "us versus them."

    Let these officers face the law and, if found guilty, suffer for their crimes. But let us not assume that all police are jackbooted thugs with a hard-on for violence against everyone in sight.
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  • Colonel Plink
    That writing was so awful, Mickey Spillane would laugh out loud..

    I understand that a man died and that the police killed him. I understand that, according to witnesses, he wasn't given a chance to comply.

    But the slant on the story was so damn steep that it calls the "facts" into question.
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  • peon
    quote:Originally posted by newtgingrich
    in all fairness i dont think the source is very crediable


    Sounds like the "spin" machine was in overdrive when they wrote that little piece.[xx(]

    I'd like to compare it to the police report.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    These jack booted thugs need to face the death penalty...this is one situation where the Pagans might take some justified justice into their own hands...[:(!][V]
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  • fu007dan
    And it would be extremely justified. What the "officers" did was sickening to say the least.

    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    These jack booted thugs need to face the death penalty...this is one situation where the Pagans might take some justified justice into their own hands...[:(!][V]
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  • Colonel Plink
    Any tool with a few bucks can set up a website and say anything they want. It's up to us to use our God-given brains to separate facts from inflammatory accusations. Calling for the officers' heads on a stake based on what was given as a "Credible Source" would shame anyone with a third-grade intellect.

    Besides, I'm not ready to cede our justice system to bikers wearing outlaw colors.
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  • David Nunn
    And, how do we know that the account cited is accurate? Geez, I wouldn't want some of you on my jury.
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  • Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    And, how do we know that the account cited is accurate? Geez, I wouldn't want some of you on my jury.


    After having spent my entire adult life in the news media, I can safely say the the facts aren't really all that important to whomever wrote that awful piece of garbage.
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  • dlrjj
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    Any tool with a few bucks can set up a website and say anything they want. It's up to us to use our God-given brains to separate facts from inflammatory accusations. Calling for the officers' heads on a stake based on what was given as a "Credible Source" would shame anyone with a third-grade intellect.

    Besides, I'm not ready to cede our justice system to bikers wearing outlaw colors.
    What, you mean there's a reason to have a trial before we stage the execution based on a blog? Who would have thought.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    And, how do we know that the account cited is accurate? Geez, I wouldn't want some of you on my jury.



    Based strictly on the "facts" presented in the article, I stand by my comments. The article stated that there were many witnesses to the events too.
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  • Txs
    Some here are reading an article from an unknown and obviously biased source, then frothing at the mouth about people overreacting and reaching conclusions without having all the facts.

    That's ironic.
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  • Blckhrn
    quote:Originally posted by dcinffxva
    quote:Originally posted by RugerNiner
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w10.html


    Ruger,

    I know nothing about this particular case, but just an FYI, the Pagans are one of the top four notorious motorcycle gangs in the US preceeded by the Hells Angels, Outlaws and Bandidos.

    They are a semi-organized crime entity, and having had numerous dealings with them in the past, have absolutely nothing good to say about them.


    Which is worse, the leos or the MC group sponsoring a toy drive?
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  • Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    And, how do we know that the account cited is accurate? Geez, I wouldn't want some of you on my jury.



    Based strictly on the "facts" presented in the article, I stand by my comments. The article stated that there were many witnesses to the events too.


    You're assuming that what was "reported" were facts. I didn't see any. I saw a whole bunch of really bad writing, designed to raise the ire of gullible people. No witnesses, aside from people closely associated with all the players, were cited. You may as well cite H. P. Lovecraft or Hunter S. Thompson as irrefutable sources.
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  • Permanently deleted user
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    And, how do we know that the account cited is accurate? Geez, I wouldn't want some of you on my jury.



    Based strictly on the "facts" presented in the article, I stand by my comments. The article stated that there were many witnesses to the events too.




    You're assuming that what was "reported" were facts. I didn't see any. I saw a whole bunch of really bad writing, designed to raise the ire of gullible people. No witnesses, aside from people closely associated with all the players, were cited. You may as well cite H. P. Lovecraft or Hunter S. Thompson as irrefutable sources.




    ....hence "facts" being in quotation marks...

    I think I remember hearing something about this in the mainstream news media...but I'm really not sure. If this article accurately reflected the events that took place, I stand by my remarks...just like I said before.
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  • fu007dan
    To restate my post, I didn't call for an execution. But these officers do need to be held accountable for their actions. Hopefully prison time and for the officer who fire, maybe more.

    I've read all three of these articles and still stand by my words, the so called "officers of the peace" need to be held accountable.
    The police had been informed that Derek didn't pose a threat and didn't have any weapons on his person. This information is documented by the surveillance team that provided the information to the officers.

    http://www.rutherford.org/pdf/hale_complaint.pdf

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/27/AR2007032702486.html

    http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070324/NEWS/703240357
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  • TrinityScrimshaw
    Some are just too quick to judge. The reason why LEO's feel "it is us against them" is easy to understand by just reading some of the postings here.

    Trinity +++
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  • Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by ECC
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    And, how do we know that the account cited is accurate? Geez, I wouldn't want some of you on my jury.



    Based strictly on the "facts" presented in the article, I stand by my comments. The article stated that there were many witnesses to the events too.



    ....hence "facts" being in quotation marks...

    I think I remember hearing something about this in the mainstream news media...but I'm really not sure. If this article accurately reflected the events that took place, I stand by my remarks...just like I said before.

    You're assuming that what was "reported" were facts. I didn't see any. I saw a whole bunch of really bad writing, designed to raise the ire of gullible people. No witnesses, aside from people closely associated with all the players, were cited. You may as well cite H. P. Lovecraft or Hunter S. Thompson as irrefutable sources.



    I understand your position, Eric. I really do.
    I simply won't fall for this sort of irresponsible nonsense.

    Whomever wrote this piece did so with their own conclusions already arrived at.
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  • fu007dan
    Then read the other three articles I provided, some of which containing information from the surveillance team, and uninvolved parties. And to Colonel Plink I don't think the contractor across the street was "closely associated with all the players"
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  • Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by fu007dan
    Then read the other three articles I provided, some of which containing information from the surveillance team, and uninvolved parties. And to Colonel Plink I don't think the contractor across the street was "closely associated with all the players"


    I stand corrected. Thank you.

    To be fair, I was responding only to the original "source" cited.

    And what I read in the other - shall we say, less passionate - accounts, leads me to believe that there will be some heads rolling.
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  • fu007dan
    I think that these officers should be held accountable at all costs, given their position of power. If that means the officer that fired that three (3) separate 40. caliber rounds to his chest at point blank in front of a woman and two children "maybe" facing life in prison, so be it.
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  • warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.


    On the same note, I've noticed the proliferation of "SWAT" and SRT (special response) units. It seems like every podunk PD has one now, no matter how small or remote. Does Bumf**k County Montanta, population 25,000, really need a SWAT team? Or is it just an excuse for these tiny rural departments to spend that Homeland Security money on some cool "toys" and gives them an opportunity to dress up in body armor with automatic weapons and live out their special forces fantasies?
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  • Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.


    On the same note, I've noticed the proliferation of "SWAT" and SRT (special response) units. It seems like every podunk PD has one now, no matter how small or remote. Does Bumf**k County Montanta, population 25,000, really need a SWAT team? Or is it just an excuse for these tiny rural departments to spend that Homeland Security money on some cool "toys" and gives them an opportunity to dress up in body armor with automatic weapons and live out their special forces fantasies?



    Here in rural Colorado, we're still weathering a lot of Meth-related crimes. Given the volatile nature of the substance itself and the mindset of those under it's influence, I'm glad we have officers with SRT training and equipment. So I don't know about Bumf**k, Montana, but Logan County, Colorado has put ours to good use.
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  • fu007dan
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.


    On the same note, I've noticed the proliferation of "SWAT" and SRT (special response) units. It seems like every podunk PD has one now, no matter how small or remote. Does Bumf**k County Montanta, population 25,000, really need a SWAT team? Or is it just an excuse for these tiny rural departments to spend that Homeland Security money on some cool "toys" and gives them an opportunity to dress up in body armor with automatic weapons and live out their special forces fantasies?



    Here in rural Colorado, we're still weathering a lot of Meth-related crimes. Given the volatile nature of the substance itself and the mindset of those under it's influence, I'm glad we have officers with SRT training and equipment. So I don't know about Bumf**k, Montana, but Logan County, Colorado has put ours to good use.




    Yes, they should have the advanced training and equipment, but they don't need to use the extreme "military style" attacks, they are still peace officers, or is that another thing we lost along with our freedoms?
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  • Permanently deleted user
    quote:Originally posted by fu007dan
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.


    On the same note, I've noticed the proliferation of "SWAT" and SRT (special response) units. It seems like every podunk PD has one now, no matter how small or remote. Does Bumf**k County Montanta, population 25,000, really need a SWAT team? Or is it just an excuse for these tiny rural departments to spend that Homeland Security money on some cool "toys" and gives them an opportunity to dress up in body armor with automatic weapons and live out their special forces fantasies?



    Here in rural Colorado, we're still weathering a lot of Meth-related crimes. Given the volatile nature of the substance itself and the mindset of those under it's influence, I'm glad we have officers with SRT training and equipment. So I don't know about Bumf**k, Montana, but Logan County, Colorado has put ours to good use.




    Yes, they should have the advanced training and equipment, but they don't need to use the extreme "military style" attacks, they are still peace officers, or is that another thing we lost along with our freedoms?



    You are exactly right! The blatant militarization of our police forces is obvious to anyone who is watching...a true Peace Officer is hard to find anymore...we have a couple on this board, but sadly they are the oddity these days.
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  • warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.


    On the same note, I've noticed the proliferation of "SWAT" and SRT (special response) units. It seems like every podunk PD has one now, no matter how small or remote. Does Bumf**k County Montanta, population 25,000, really need a SWAT team? Or is it just an excuse for these tiny rural departments to spend that Homeland Security money on some cool "toys" and gives them an opportunity to dress up in body armor with automatic weapons and live out their special forces fantasies?



    Here in rural Colorado, we're still weathering a lot of Meth-related crimes. Given the volatile nature of the substance itself and the mindset of those under it's influence, I'm glad we have officers with SRT training and equipment. So I don't know about Bumf**k, Montana, but Logan County, Colorado has put ours to good use.




    Well, I think it goes back to what EMM was saying, not only are SWAT teams proliferating but they are also more widely used to address relatively minor crimes like prostitution or drug buys. Do we really need eight guys dressed all in black body armor and carrying MP5s to arrest some johns during a prostitution sting or some kid buying marijuana from an undercover officer?

    Case in point: http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070320006269&newsLang=en


    A medical doctor in Virginia was gunned down by a SWAT officer during a raid on his home. What was his crime? Sports betting. That's right, he took bets on sports from patrons at a local bar. The court issued a routine documents search for his home, apparently someone felt that it needed to be executed by SWAT for a criminal as dangerous as this gambling doctor.

    The murdered doctor had no criminal record, no history of violence, did not own a single firearm, and the police had no evidence to indicate that he might be armed or dangerous in any way. So why send in SWAT? Some nervous SWAT member apparently "accidentally" fired his weapon during the arrest, the doctor had his hands raised in the air and was cooperating with orders. I guess the SWAT officer had his finger already on the trigger (in violation of all established firearm safety rules and police training, your finger does not move to that trigger unless you intend to SHOOT, specifically to avoid unintentional discharges like this one) and in his adrenaline-induced state accidentally pulled the trigger.

    But then again, this doctor was "the enemy." The SWAT officers went in with a military mindset, as they were trained, ready to use deadly force at moment's notice, for some guy whose crime was so insignificant as to be almost irrelevant. They went in, weapons already drawn while serving a minor warrant, with one officer's finger ON THE TRIGGER. And for what? Nothing. What justifed this excessive use of force in a residential neighborhood against a man whose crime was pathetically minor?
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  • Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by fu007dan
    quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
    quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    "Protect and serve" has given way to "search and destroy" to many officers. They place their own safety above that of anyone else's - which is not a police officer's duty. Their job is to serve the public, not themselves.


    On the same note, I've noticed the proliferation of "SWAT" and SRT (special response) units. It seems like every podunk PD has one now, no matter how small or remote. Does Bumf**k County Montanta, population 25,000, really need a SWAT team? Or is it just an excuse for these tiny rural departments to spend that Homeland Security money on some cool "toys" and gives them an opportunity to dress up in body armor with automatic weapons and live out their special forces fantasies?



    Here in rural Colorado, we're still weathering a lot of Meth-related crimes. Given the volatile nature of the substance itself and the mindset of those under it's influence, I'm glad we have officers with SRT training and equipment. So I don't know about Bumf**k, Montana, but Logan County, Colorado has put ours to good use.




    Yes, they should have the advanced training and equipment, but they don't need to use the extreme "military style" attacks, they are still peace officers, or is that another thing we lost along with our freedoms?


    I see separation of duties here.
    On the one hand, I'm a believer in "Community Policing" That is when local law enforcement sees themselves as part of the community and approaches their work with a desire to help.

    Then there are the situations that call for more advanced training and equipment so that the officers and the communities they're sworn to protect are protected.

    Different situations call for different responses.


    I'm still uneasy with the whole concept of "no-knock" raids. Oh, sure, when a meth lab is taken down by one of these raids, its "Good job to our boys and girls in Blue" But if my door were kicked in at 3:30AM and my family were forced to the ground while ninja-clad officers destroyed my property, it'd be different.

    I understand if that's a blatant double-standard to some. But I'm not a meth-head nor do I tend to take hostages. I'm just a regular guy who hopes that if the local Po-Po needs to talk to me, will call me in. And at least double-check their intel on every single situation the SRT team is called out to.
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