What does the 2nd include?
Ok...so i'm pretty sure everyone here knows that its our right to own any type of gun (no matter shape, cal, action, form, purpose)...but what about bigger things like grenade launchers, hand grenades, RPG's, LAWS, Artillery etc.?
Personally I think we should be able to own all of this...because its our RIGHT!
Personally I think we should be able to own all of this...because its our RIGHT!
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dlrjj:
I note a level of sarcasm in your response. But what you say is actually truer than you would like to believe. The safest place to hide is in the wide open. With the maze of disinformation and labeling everything as a conspiracy, THEY, can get away with practically anything. The rest of us are morons, idiots, conspiracy theorists.. the "labels" abound.
Comprehension has been replaced by interpretation!!! Our 2nd Amendment rights are being stripped away, by interpretation, by the indoctrinated elitists and sold to us bit-by-bit, mouthful-by-mouthful as security, safety, for the good of the children, or whatever is selling. "THEY" use what means the most to us as an implement of suppression!! Our only saving grace will be when those whom have placed themselves upon that "Intellectually Superior" pedestal come down off their high horse and realize what's going on and more people realize that "THEIR" twisted vision of security is NOT compatible with freedom.
Labels, whatever they may say or indicate, are just that. A tool to get a message across. Make of them what you would like, but it's important to look beyond them for the truth!!0 -
This discussion seems to really have devolved from my original statement. O.K. I will restate my position:
The Second Amendment does not grant an individual the right to own a gun, it merely prohibits the Federal Government from passing laws about disarming the citizens of any state. The US Supreme Court--like it or not--is recognized by popular concensus of not only our elected officials but the majority of the people for well over 200 yrs to be the final arbiter of what our Constitution means. They have never upheld an individual's right to own a gun based on the Second Amen.
There have been many gun laws passed in the past 200 yrs. None of those laws have been held unconstitutional under the 2nd Amen.
This is certainly my "opinion." It is also recognized by the majority of those involved in the field of law to be a statement of fact.
Now, from my understanding of the postings here, my statement is not true because:
1) I am a (select one or more) marxist, greedy capitalist, socialist, elitist, dumbed down, incapable of original thought, ad hominem attack du jour. As such, my argument fails.
2) All the judges and S.C. justices from 1787 on down simply did not know what they were talking about.
3) I'm educated so I have been dumbed down. I cannot think for myself as I have been "indoctrinated." Therefore my argument fails.
I guess you guys won that debate, I see how I am wrong and everything I have been taught or read has been incorrect. I always was of the belief that an argument could be disproven only through either a successful refutation of fact or flawed logic. I guess I believed this because I made poor choices in critically examining what I read and what I was taught. I was the guy that would always ask questions and engage in debate with those brain-addled proffessors at university and law school. Little did I know that I was being indoctrinated. They did this very insidiously; they mustered fact and used logic. Not just any logic either, but sound logic. I know this because I have a pretty good idea about how to detect fallacious logic and invalid arguments. Just shows to go ya that the more education you have the dumber you get. I cannot see how scientists and brain surgeons can make it thru the day. Hell with their level of education I'm sure most of them have to wear drool-bibs. No the educated are bad for us. Education sucks. Wow have I really wasted my time.
I'll look back in for a day or so to check any new posts, but I'm not gonna waste much more time here. I've got a lot smartening-up to do so I must unlearn a lot of knowledge so I won't be so dumb and can think for myself. If there is anyone who would like to have a reasoned discussion, I will correspond with you.
I'm sorry I've upset the rest of you, please go back to your trailer and go on with your beleifs, they trump reality.0 -
Wagon Wheel, old friend.you are getting above your station in life.
The non -college educated are supposed to sit at the feet of the masters, gazing adoringly at their boots..which are to be kept in a high state of shine by your shirt.
No imput is needed, for the masters to guide us along the path of life.and none will be tolerated.
The masses have indeed trusted the upper class to run things in this country..and the upper class has done what it always does, in every culture and every country since time began.
The only glimmer of hope I see is the slow awaking of the American people to the path the Elites are leading the trusting down..
There can be no wonder about the level of animosity that the upper class holds for the little people.and none what-so-ever about the mind-set that dictates "No Right to Own Firearms".
Notice the ever so polite interaction between `equals' in the above thread.sorta like the interaction I subscribe to for those that actually understand and believe in the Second Amendment.
I can absolutely guarantee you one thing..were the situation ever to collapse to the point foxholes were necessary..there are people that even if they DID proclaim themselves "Pro-Second Amendment"..I would NEVER allow them behind me with a knife or loaded gun.0 -
All bullsnot aside, the question that was asked "What does the 2nd include?"
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Is that not an answer?
There is no need for interpretation, just comprehension. The way you came across in your posts did indeed portray you as a Marxist, to me at least.0 -
Highball:
I knew you couldn't "retire". You're right, as usual; I`ve always had a problem with that "station in life" thing. I just don't believe in it. I'd hate to have to go out and buy a trailer home to meet expectations!!
belercous:
Being new, you probably don't realize that on this thread you will very seldom find anyone making personal attacks on anyone, especially a new poster. The only time I've ever seen that has been when an OBVIOUS loon started it. If your last post is in reference to my postings let me assure you I speak in general terms, pointing the finger at no one individual. There are far to many thin-skinned people that take things too personally. To them all I have to say about that is; if the shoe fits, wear it. If it pinches your foot, or cuts off circulation, take it off!!
Intelligent people, and intelligent debates are welcome here. I am not the only one here with an opinion and neither are you. Don't expect to convert anyone. Any change in anyone's thought process will be made BY THEM, but only after they decide to do so. And you WILL find out how very hard that can be. Even with a powerful argument. Stick around. You probably have a lot to contribute and probably as much to learn.0 -
Wagon Wheel is NEARLY right...I often attack those espousing gun control, big business, big government, and blind obedience to any of the above. 0 -
Highball:
I wasn't pointing any fingers and your not alone. Loons and trolls pop in on occasion and their first posts are personal attacks. I often suspect them to be gubmint monitors or anti's looking for ammo, just trying to bait a response. I used to be bad at taking it too. I've been working on avoiding that. I don't want the credit and it's not something I'm proud of, but I'm sure I've made posts that ran off some newbies. Generalizations or brutal truth taken personally. (People looking for validation of their interpretation of things, rather than the truth.) Some have the balls to stick around, some don't. I will admit, your brand of the brutal truth, if it doesn't change minds, at least makes one start thinking. I have seen subtle changes in opinion reflected in many posts over the years and credited to your posts. S88T does happen. The truly intellectually inquisitive use the resources, knowledge and experience here to grow. Those looking for validation don't. Just a fact of life. It just doesn't take a brain surgeon to COMPREHEND the 2nd Amendment. Or any of them for that matter!!!0 -
Kenneth (belercous)
You came here for one reason, to pick a fight.
Was this a class project, a thesis, or just to boost your own........?
quote:Originally posted by belercous
This discussion seems to really have devolved from my original statement.
Your original statement has been dealt with, and dismissed. You offer no discussion to the counterpoints given, you just continue to spout your "opinion" as if it were fact.
You come to a GUN auction site, then to the "Gun Rights" forum, sign up, for the sole purpose of expounding (in your own words) "your view" of the meaning of the 2nd amendment. Intentionally attacking the Constitutional right of the people to keep and bear arms. You expected (almost begged?) to be called names in your very first post, as evidenced by the quote below.
quote:Originally posted by belercous
I expect to be called all sorts of names because I realize that my view is not going to be popular here
There have been many "scholars" down through the ages, arguing both sides of this debate. The debate will continue until the SC hands down a ruling. Why don't they? They have had MANY opportunities to do so. They simply REFUSE to hear those cases. (which is their prerogative) Can you imagine how many people they would have to let out of prison, how many law suits would be filed, etc. if they were to hand down the decision that it IS our constitutional right to keep and bear arms? I bet THEY have imagined this scenario.
You keep harping on how "educated" YOU are. You have NO IDEA the level of education of the members here on this forum. It is obvious from your last post (quoted below) that you look down your nose at everyone here, referring to anyone who will not bow to your wishes, as "trailer trash" I have met MANY like you.
Saying you own guns, and are not happy, or trust the government, in the hopes of building some kind of "brother in arms" camaraderie with the members here, becomes very thin after a remark like that. Your original intention for coming here, becomes quite apparent. Any respect you "may" have warranted flew out the window with that remark. You can still post here, if you wish, but I will withdraw my "Welcome to the forum" and have nothing more to do with you.
quote:Originally posted by belercous
I'm sorry I've upset the rest of you, please go back to your trailer
Any others who wish to continue to reply to belercous's posts, as always, keep it civil.0 -
As you are fully aware, Pickenup;
I have a bad habit of poking thru garbage..allowing the stinking stench to fill the nostrils of those tettering on the edge of the insanity of government control of firearms...the more the gun controllers rave and dribble spit the more people they lose for their insane game.
I never feel the lose of those fleeing MY brand of venom..cowards die a thousand deaths every day...and those people fit better under government control.
Can you imagine suddenly having to baby sit 80 % of the population..those sucking on government teat for every aspect of their lives ?0 -
I used to love hearing about my "Constitutional Rights", now a little bit of vomit rises in my throat whenever I hear that phrase.
The Constitution had nothing to do with granting people rights. Every person is born with all the Human Rights they are ever going to have, including the right ot keep and bear arms. It is the role of tyrants to deny an individual the ability to exercise those inherent Human Rights. The U.S. Constitution was written as an instruction manual on the form and function of our new Federal Government. The Bill of Rights was added, after much debate and dissent, to emphasize the Human Rights that the Federal Government must absolutely never infrige upon!
And just as the dissenters feared, 230 years later the vast majority of Americans believe that it is that actual piece of paper that grants The People their rights. It is the most absurd distortion of reality in history.
If you really want to learn about Common Sense and the Rights of Man, read Thomas Paine. The Founders knew what he was talking about, he inspired them. We don't even hold a spark up to the torch that those great enlightened men ignited. We are left with a cold burned-out ember.0 -
quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
I used to love hearing about my "Constitutional Rights", now a little bit of vomit rises in my throat whenever I hear that phrase.
The Constitution had nothing to do with granting people rights. Every person is born with all the Human Rights they are ever going to have, including the right ot keep and bear arms. It is the role of tyrants to deny an individual the ability to exercise those inherent Human Rights. The U.S. Constitution was written as an instruction manual on the form and function of our new Federal Government. The Bill of Rights was added, after much debate and dissent, to emphasize the Human Rights that the Federal Government must absolutely never infrige upon!
And just as the dissenters feared, 230 years later the vast majority of Americans believe that it is that actual piece of paper that grants The People their rights. It is the most absurd distortion of reality in history.
If you really want to learn about Common Sense and the Rights of Man, read Thomas Paine. The Founders knew what he was talking about, he inspired them. We don't even hold a spark up to the torch that those great enlightened men ignited. We are left with a cold burned-out ember.
Amen Brother Wolf, amen.[;)]0 -
Everybody here knows I support all firearms including the Title 2/Class 3, but I also think the 2nd Amendment covers other weapons like brass knuckles (referenced from another post) as well as switchblades, swords, and other "martial arts" weapons.
Why, of all things do they ban switchblades?[:(!]0 -
quote:Originally posted by dsmith
Everybody here knows I support all firearms including the Title 2/Class 3, but I also think the 2nd Amendment covers other weapons like brass knuckles (referenced from another post) as well as switchblades, swords, and other "martial arts" weapons.
Why, of all things do they ban switchblades?[:(!]
Beats me....
Because their stupid.... they are, as Sigmund Freud would say, mentally and sexually retarded, they are irrational, unintelligent (keep in mind, fear of inanimate objects is learned by others, not instinctual, and that is the barrier between intelligent vs. educated), cowardly, or psychotic, basing their feelings and thoughts as if everyone thinks them.
I think that shall be enough for now.0 -
You guys are forgetting one important point here.
The Constitution, is an "ever evolving document", according to the "elites".
How else can we understand 10 different legal scholars, developing 10 differing opinions, on clear, and very simple text?
How did the first amendment come to cover "pornography", except by that very process?
Freedom of speech was very clearly meant to convey the right to speak out against the government, without fear of reprisal,......but it now means we have the right to have the above pumped into our homes, via sattelite, and cable. If that is ones bag,.......I have no issue, but it has NOTHING to do with freedom of speech, anymore than the obviously "purposeful" misinterpretation of the second amendment!0
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