Active Shooters (law enforcment perspective)
I know writing about this subject on this page is like beating a dead horse, but I feel that I have to vent a bit. I would like to first start out by saying that I am an police officer who believes in the right to bear arms. I think that its a common misconception that police officers are out to take the guns away from the general public (well local police anyways, Im not speaking for federal agencies like the ATF). In fact, quite the opposite. Most police officers personally own weapons and believe in the right for someone to defend themselves. Now im sure there are plenty of sob stories from people out there who had bad experiences with police, Im not posting this to hear about that.
I am posting this to discuss the topic of active shooters. I have personally been trying to find statistics regarding police success against active shooters. I think what all of us see in most cases in "gun free zones" like schools, that the shooter starts blazing away and in a matter on minutes kills himself before the police arrive to secure the scene. The police then end up serving as merely an investigative tool and a information outlet to the media. As law enforcement officers we find this highly frustrating. We want to get into the building and save lives. But contrary to what the liberals are hoping for, it is almost impossible to respond to a scene, form a small group of officers, obtain a general idea of where the shooter is, enter the building, move to the specific room he is in and engage him. Even on our best day, it would take from 5 to 10 minutes for that to happen. In a few cases, the shooter chained the doors, making the police response even longer. Since the Columbine shooting, police have changed their tactics of response to active shooters. They no longer secure the perimeter and wait for the SWAT team. Now patrol officers enter the building right away and confront the killer as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, it has not helped much. Even after the tactics have changed for the better, we still end up with the worst school shooting in United States history with 32 dead at Virginia Tech and now more killing at Northern Illinois. The reality is, it can take a matter of just a few minutes for a shooter to murder scores of people. Most of the maniacs know this and plan their attack that way. They know the police are coming quicker than they used too, so they adjust. They also know that in "gun free zones" all of the people will not be equipt to defend themselves.
Universities are liberal dominated, meaning the majority of the people there do not have any fighting spirit and will lay to be lambs for the slaughter. This has to change quickly if we are to stop this. Part of the reason why these school shooting incidents make the news nationwide is because of the sheer numbers of people killed or injured. With the media hype, this inspires copy cat killers to come out of the wood work. Now we have to ask ourselves, would it have made the news if the Virgina Tech shooter shot 3 people and was then shot by a private citizen moments later? The answer is no it wouldn't have, not as much coverage anyways. First off because it wouldn't have been as sensational and 2nd because a predominately left wing media will ignore most instances where citizens defend themselves with firearms.
Im not writing to knock on law enforcement. Any armed citizen who engages an active shooter, should immediately yield to the police when they arrive on the scene. Thats what we have the police for. Also a strong piece of advice I have to give to everyone reading this, IF YOU ARE AN ARMED CITIZEN ENGAGING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE A SUSPECT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVE. WHEN THE POLICE MAKE THE SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS ARE. WHEN THE POLICE WALK INTO A SCENE OF CARNAGE, THEY MAY THINK YOU ARE THE KILLER AND TAKE ACTION AGAINST YOU. My best advice would be to announce who you are, drop your gun and hit the floor with your hands in view. DO WHAT YOU ARE INSTRUCTED TO DO BY THE POLICE. This is not Hollywood, you dont walk off into the sunset minutes later with the beautiful woman on your arms. YOU WILL BE HANDCUFFED AND DRAGGED OUT OF THE SCENE TO BE QUESTIONED. Be as helpful as you can be in regards to instructing the police where the shooter is and what he is armed with. It would be a terrible event to defend your self against a shooter to be accidently shot by police minutes later.
The moral of the story is, we as the citizens of this great country are going to have to step up for ourselves. We are going to have to send a message, If you want to come into our schools and try to kill our children, you will pay an immediate price, the ultimate price. I urge everyone to work with law makers towards changing these places from "gun free zones" to "armed law biding citizen zones". DO NOT expect the police to be there holding your hand when the shooting starts. The police will do everything they can to help you, but until then it will be on each and every one of you to defend yourselves.
I am posting this to discuss the topic of active shooters. I have personally been trying to find statistics regarding police success against active shooters. I think what all of us see in most cases in "gun free zones" like schools, that the shooter starts blazing away and in a matter on minutes kills himself before the police arrive to secure the scene. The police then end up serving as merely an investigative tool and a information outlet to the media. As law enforcement officers we find this highly frustrating. We want to get into the building and save lives. But contrary to what the liberals are hoping for, it is almost impossible to respond to a scene, form a small group of officers, obtain a general idea of where the shooter is, enter the building, move to the specific room he is in and engage him. Even on our best day, it would take from 5 to 10 minutes for that to happen. In a few cases, the shooter chained the doors, making the police response even longer. Since the Columbine shooting, police have changed their tactics of response to active shooters. They no longer secure the perimeter and wait for the SWAT team. Now patrol officers enter the building right away and confront the killer as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, it has not helped much. Even after the tactics have changed for the better, we still end up with the worst school shooting in United States history with 32 dead at Virginia Tech and now more killing at Northern Illinois. The reality is, it can take a matter of just a few minutes for a shooter to murder scores of people. Most of the maniacs know this and plan their attack that way. They know the police are coming quicker than they used too, so they adjust. They also know that in "gun free zones" all of the people will not be equipt to defend themselves.
Universities are liberal dominated, meaning the majority of the people there do not have any fighting spirit and will lay to be lambs for the slaughter. This has to change quickly if we are to stop this. Part of the reason why these school shooting incidents make the news nationwide is because of the sheer numbers of people killed or injured. With the media hype, this inspires copy cat killers to come out of the wood work. Now we have to ask ourselves, would it have made the news if the Virgina Tech shooter shot 3 people and was then shot by a private citizen moments later? The answer is no it wouldn't have, not as much coverage anyways. First off because it wouldn't have been as sensational and 2nd because a predominately left wing media will ignore most instances where citizens defend themselves with firearms.
Im not writing to knock on law enforcement. Any armed citizen who engages an active shooter, should immediately yield to the police when they arrive on the scene. Thats what we have the police for. Also a strong piece of advice I have to give to everyone reading this, IF YOU ARE AN ARMED CITIZEN ENGAGING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE A SUSPECT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVE. WHEN THE POLICE MAKE THE SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS ARE. WHEN THE POLICE WALK INTO A SCENE OF CARNAGE, THEY MAY THINK YOU ARE THE KILLER AND TAKE ACTION AGAINST YOU. My best advice would be to announce who you are, drop your gun and hit the floor with your hands in view. DO WHAT YOU ARE INSTRUCTED TO DO BY THE POLICE. This is not Hollywood, you dont walk off into the sunset minutes later with the beautiful woman on your arms. YOU WILL BE HANDCUFFED AND DRAGGED OUT OF THE SCENE TO BE QUESTIONED. Be as helpful as you can be in regards to instructing the police where the shooter is and what he is armed with. It would be a terrible event to defend your self against a shooter to be accidently shot by police minutes later.
The moral of the story is, we as the citizens of this great country are going to have to step up for ourselves. We are going to have to send a message, If you want to come into our schools and try to kill our children, you will pay an immediate price, the ultimate price. I urge everyone to work with law makers towards changing these places from "gun free zones" to "armed law biding citizen zones". DO NOT expect the police to be there holding your hand when the shooting starts. The police will do everything they can to help you, but until then it will be on each and every one of you to defend yourselves.
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Amen Amen Amen and again I say Amen. In regards to the Va tech shooter, how much info did you hear from the Media in regards to "Ishmael Ax"? I can tell you the answer to that one. NADA. They touched on it just briefly enough to tell us that's how he signed the manifesto he sent out just prior to the onset of the shooting, but they didnt tell you who "Ismael Ax" is. "Ishmael Ax" sounds Muslim dont it? That's cuz it is a reference to Islam. I would like to direct you to a web site www.prophetofdoom.com there is a whole lot about what the term means there. As a matter of fact you can learn a whole lot about that so called "religion of peace" there. I think that in the next days following the upcoming elections, we will need to know as much about Islam as ever. 0 -
As a "retired" teacher I have personally seen an increase in violence in our schools in the last couple years...even parents have been treating teachers and administration with less respect.
I carry everywhere I can. I have only needed my sidearm twice in my life...both times were on school property...a place where my firearm is forbidden. The funny thing is...given the same situation on the street, I would never had been approached. All it takes is a hint of fear...0 -
As we speak there is a school back east that is in the process of allowing or trying to allow CCW's on campus. I dont know if it will be successful, but we can hope.
It might take someone illegally carrying on a campus and stopping a mass murderer to open the eyes of liberal school administrators to start allowing guns on campus as a regular policy.0 -
Dang, I had to look at the profile to make sure I didn't write that in my sleep or something.
Long before we had "active shooter" training I went to the local high school and asked the principle what their plan was if they heard shots in or around the school.
The answer I got was totally lacking and I told him what I was going to do, enter the school and find the shooter and kill him/her as quickly as possible or die trying. He did not like that answer and almost seemed offended.
Some of these school officials are like the ostrich with it's head in the sand hoping it will never happen to them.
You are absolutely right on with what you said. There will probably be some folks on here that won't agree but let disagree.
Bode0 -
I agree with in totallity. I have thought to myself that if the time came that I needed to react I would, and although I have no leo experience I am a hunter stalker with good aim and good reflexes.
Of course I would yield to leo once on scene faster than a speeding bullet. The problem is that normal people "the public" are not in a position to intercept the cowards who do this type of shooting as you say they happen in gun free zones so its not likely that it will happen untill Like that church a couple month ago had people who were carrying to intercept these cowards,
The other thing here is we need to indentify these people as cowards, don't call them sick or anything else call them what they are, COWARDS.
I have spoken with many officers mostly at the range who comment about my shooting abilities and who suggest it would be appropiate to assist in defence untill leo is on the scene.
I think most active shooters, actually shoot more than most police officers I say this simply because we shoot for fun and our sole desire is to become better against ourselves, where as police shoot to maintain there limited profiency.
I notice that at one of the ranges that I go to, is mostly police and they tend to shoot great at shorter distances 25ft. I shoot at 40ft at this particular range because thats what they have. I have been asked to leave because the other thing I like to do is shoot while the target is moving away from me, it seems to piss them off or maybe its my rate of fire. I'm not sure. I try to go when there arn't other people there so that I can shoot multiple targets (another no no).
At one time we used to shoot round robins everybody shot and the best five or ten could win some money,(like bowling tournements), everybody used to play, now, thats unheard of, I think it fostered a group fealing, not us against them as it now appears to be. so sad.
Now personly I don't feal like the leo's are trying to take away our guns, in fact I think the pendelum has swung the otherway I think that as long as were smart about our handling of guns leo's are mostly in favor. the problem there is most leos don't know the people there protecting any more, so they don't know what to expect.
Anyway Stylish Keep the faith, maybe things will get better0 -
I've said it before.
Strike their names from all records! (from birth onward)
NO media coverage!
No footnotes in history!
They have no shame. To be called a coward is still to be remembered! To have left their "mark" on the face of the earth!
Remember Bob Ford?
Et tu, Brute?
Take it away!
Might not stop the real nuts, but it would sure make the young gloryhounds stutter.
Allen0 -
this is a good post lets bring it back up for a second look. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by huntergarret
As a "retired" teacher I have personally seen an increase in violence in our schools in the last couple years...even parents have been treating teachers and administration with less respect.
I carry everywhere I can. I have only needed my sidearm twice in my life...both times were on school property...a place where my firearm is forbidden. The funny thing is...given the same situation on the street, I would never had been approached. All it takes is a hint of fear...
Our school district just got cops in the schools. Not because of the students, but because of the parents assaulting teachers.[xx(]0 -
I am a ccw holder. I will get flamed for this, but the onlytime I will draw my weapon is if I or someone with me is confronted with deadly force. If I'm at the mall and someone starts popping off rounds into the people around you, you better haul azz, cause that's what I'm gonna do. If I were to start stalking the shooter and trying to line up a shot and a LEO sees me first, I fully expect to get my azz shot. They don't pay LEO's near enough to take the first bullet.
"IF YOU ARE AN ARMED CITIZEN ENGAGING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE A SUSPECT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVE. WHEN THE POLICE MAKE THE SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS ARE. WHEN THE POLICE WALK INTO A SCENE OF CARNAGE, THEY MAY THINK YOU ARE THE KILLER AND TAKE ACTION AGAINST YOU." Meaning, you are going to get your azz shot. Period. That's just the way it is.0 -
767,
I fully agrre with what you wrote, and I too am an LEO.
At a recent church function I was speaking with a couple of other men who were interested in the empty pancake holster on my belt. They all knew I was a LEO, and they knew I was off duty. One of the guys asked me if I carried while off duty, and I said "I sure do". Another one asked me if I carried a small 380 or something like one. I said, no I would not be caught carrying something that small. I was then asked what I did carry, and I said I carry a Kimber, 45 ACP. Some of them thought that it sounded too big, and I told them that I intended it that way, and I want something that will give results if I need to use it. My pastor asked me why I wasn't carrying it then, and I said that it was because I was at Church, and he said "Don't let that stop you". I love that guy...[:)]
Trinity +++0 -
A few thoughts on yielding to LEOs.
One of two things is going to happen if I'm carrying and am successful in dropping the perp. Either I will shoot him before the LEO gets there, in which case I will be calmly sitting with the gun well away from me, or they'll come in right AS I"m shooting him- in which I'd hope the training of the LEO would let him ascertain that the guy I'm shooting has a gun as well and pause before shooting me. Yes, I'd immediately yield- but yielding is only necessary if the police come in and catch you in the act, so to speak.
If the cops did come in and shoot me while I was engaged in stopping the perp, I like to think I'd be big about it, but if I survived I suspect that I'd sue the hell out of that police department once ballistic tests proved that it wasn't my gun that had shot the unarmed victims.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jonk
A few thoughts on yielding to LEOs.
One of two things is going to happen if I'm carrying and am successful in dropping the perp. Either I will shoot him before the LEO gets there, in which case I will be calmly sitting with the gun well away from me, or they'll come in right AS I"m shooting him- in which I'd hope the training of the LEO would let him ascertain that the guy I'm shooting has a gun as well and pause before shooting me. Yes, I'd immediately yield- but yielding is only necessary if the police come in and catch you in the act, so to speak.
If the cops did come in and shoot me while I was engaged in stopping the perp, I like to think I'd be big about it, but if I survived I suspect that I'd sue the hell out of that police department once ballistic tests proved that it wasn't my gun that had shot the unarmed victims.
That is, providing you survive multiple gunshot wounds.0 -
When you hear, "The police want to take your guns away" you are, for the most part, NOT hearing that from the cop on the beat. You are hearing that from the Police Commissioners, the Captains, etc. In other words, the MOUTH PIECES, kind of like politics.
How much media coverage did the lunatic, that did the shootings in those Colorado churches get? Once they found out a private citizen, with a legal CCW, shot and killed him, thus stopping his murderous plan, the story died right there.
Every man, woman, and child SHOULD be taught that they are responsible for their own safety. Instead, they are being taught to rely on "Dial a Prayer" (911) [V]0 -
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
I am a ccw holder. I will get flamed for this, but the onlytime I will draw my weapon is if I or someone with me is confronted with deadly force. If I'm at the mall and someone starts popping off rounds into the people around you, you better haul azz, cause that's what I'm gonna do. If I were to start stalking the shooter and trying to line up a shot and a LEO sees me first, I fully expect to get my azz shot. They don't pay LEO's near enough to take the first bullet.
"IF YOU ARE AN ARMED CITIZEN ENGAGING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE A SUSPECT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVE. WHEN THE POLICE MAKE THE SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS ARE. WHEN THE POLICE WALK INTO A SCENE OF CARNAGE, THEY MAY THINK YOU ARE THE KILLER AND TAKE ACTION AGAINST YOU." Meaning, you are going to get your azz shot. Period. That's just the way it is.
This is certainly thought provoking. I can't say I really disagree. In principle, you make a great point that if you get brave and start trying to be Clint Eastwood, you might end up getting shot by an overzealous LEO seeing a gun and shooting first, asking questions second.
Like most of the conventional wisdom around here has stated, you have to practice, prepare and decide with each situation what YOU are going to do. I hope I will do the right thing, whatever that is, blow the bad guy away or just keep him in sight until LEOs arrive, but I also hope I'll have the courage to put an end to his shooting spree if I can get a clear shot and then deal with what happens to me afterwards.0 -
If I was in a position to stop such an attack, either with my own gun or by some other means, and I didn't....I'm not sure I could live with myself. 0 -
This subject has been broached many times on this forum. Stylish's post is from the LEO's point of view. That is, if you choose to take action, be mindful of what will happen when the cavalry shows up. 0 -
The thing that sickens me about active shooters is that not only do they kill for no reason but the fact they kill themselves so they don't ever have to feel the the weight on their shoulders later nor have to face legal consequences. For once I'de love to see a school shooter survive his own attack nad have the consequences rain down on them. 0 -
I don't think it would be "overzealous". As an Officer, you get the call of shots fired at the local mall, victims down. As a responding officer, especially on being first on scene, your primary job is to locate, identify and neutralize the threat. If, during the chaos, a citizen is engaged in an active shooting with the bad guy, the officer can't call time and ask for the real bad guy to please stand up. I hope the Officer's training and the citizen's QUICK willingness to cooperate helps to i.d the real threat. But, another crucial piece of the puzzle we're not looking at is the fact that the 911 dispatcher must gather as much info on the suspect as possible, such as description, clothing, location, etc, and pass it on to the responding officers. There is nothing worse than going into a situation blind. 0 -
Your exactly right!! If the info isnt given the officer will be further behind the power curve. Active Shooters are cowards, but they are also the Wolf that is stalking the sheep. Unfortunately most people are sheep who think that nothing will ever happen. As a Police Officer the only guns I want to take away are the ones possessed by the criminals.Usually they are guns bought illegally or stolen from law abiding citizens. I wish more people would have CCW's At least the right people that is. As a police officer you cannot expect us to show up at a shooting and ask whos the good guy and whos the bad guy. If you are there and you engage the bad guy, great, but please be smart when the police arrive. If you dont you will be dealt with in the same manner. You can cry about filing a law suit all you want, but I will not risk my life or my buddies life to take the time and ask you if you are the good guy. Actually your family will have to file the suit, after your funeral
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
I don't think it would be "overzealous". As an Officer, you get the call of shots fired at the local mall, victims down. As a responding officer, especially on being first on scene, your primary job is to locate, identify and neutralize the threat. If, during the chaos, a citizen is engaged in an active shooting with the bad guy, the officer can't call time and ask for the real bad guy to please stand up. I hope the Officer's training and the citizen's QUICK willingness to cooperate helps to i.d the real threat. But, another crucial piece of the puzzle we're not looking at is the fact that the 911 dispatcher must gather as much info on the suspect as possible, such as description, clothing, location, etc, and pass it on to the responding officers. There is nothing worse than going into a situation blind.0 -
Thanks fellas , 1st , for a good read , 2nd , for the advice on what to do and what not to do in a situation such as encountering an "Active Shooter "
Not sure of my own opinion on the subject , but worth thinking about .
There are quite a few LEO's at our locale gun club , I,m printing this thread ( in the morning before I leave work ) and I'm gonna post it , run it by the them and get their input on it .
Anyway , Thanks again0 -
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
I am a ccw holder. I will get flamed for this, but the onlytime I will draw my weapon is if I or someone with me is confronted with deadly force. If I'm at the mall and someone starts popping off rounds into the people around you, you better haul azz, cause that's what I'm gonna do. If I were to start stalking the shooter and trying to line up a shot and a LEO sees me first, I fully expect to get my azz shot. They don't pay LEO's near enough to take the first bullet.
"IF YOU ARE AN ARMED CITIZEN ENGAGING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE A SUSPECT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVE. WHEN THE POLICE MAKE THE SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS ARE. WHEN THE POLICE WALK INTO A SCENE OF CARNAGE, THEY MAY THINK YOU ARE THE KILLER AND TAKE ACTION AGAINST YOU." Meaning, you are going to get your azz shot. Period. That's just the way it is.
considering how slow their average response was in active shooter scenarios so far, I will have time to take the badguy out, give some good-looking ladies my number, and bug out before they (the cops) show up [xx(]0 -
These situations closely parrallel the scene at the zoo recently where the LEOs wouldn't enter the place because nobody (at first) believed there was a loose tiger, and then, they wouldn't enter because there WAS a loose tiger.
Each scene demands its' own response, and WAITING for the threat to die of old age is not one of them.
There was a shooting in Illinois at a Law School a few years ago, that was stopped by an armed citizen, that got nary a word in the media due to the resolution of the shooter's situation. LEOs arrived a full hour after the fact; waving guns and throwing students to the ground, and generally re-asserting their "authority", before being told that the shooter was taken out, and the student that did it was en route to the local gendarmerie to report it.
I'd like to think that (a la Luby's in Texas) someone would be on scene with a gun to resist or at least distract the shooter long enough for all the victims to flee, but unless there are more CCWs qualified; we will have to wait and see when/if the cops will show.
Guaranteed; if I am the only one carrying and a situation occurs in my vicinity that presents a clear, deadly force threat-I'll take the shot(s), call 911, and sit there waiting with my gun unloaded, open, and on the ground 5 feet in front of me and my raised hands.
At least if they shoot me then; I have a good case for my estate.
Then again; I might just leave.0 -
Very good post Stylishxone767. The candor is refreshing. [:)] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
I am a ccw holder. I will get flamed for this, but the onlytime I will draw my weapon is if I or someone with me is confronted with deadly force. If I'm at the mall and someone starts popping off rounds into the people around you, you better haul azz, cause that's what I'm gonna do. If I were to start stalking the shooter and trying to line up a shot and a LEO sees me first, I fully expect to get my azz shot. They don't pay LEO's near enough to take the first bullet.
"IF YOU ARE AN ARMED CITIZEN ENGAGING AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, EXPECT TO BE TREATED LIKE A SUSPECT WHEN THE POLICE ARRIVE. WHEN THE POLICE MAKE THE SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS ARE. WHEN THE POLICE WALK INTO A SCENE OF CARNAGE, THEY MAY THINK YOU ARE THE KILLER AND TAKE ACTION AGAINST YOU." Meaning, you are going to get your azz shot. Period. That's just the way it is.
This is something we must play out in our heads every time we conceal our choice firearm before we leave our homes. It may be more dangerous to leave the house without a "plan" than to go unarmed. I have always told myself...my family is first. I will always do what is their best interest. If that means running with them to safty, so be it. If I am alone, that is another story. The same issues dance in my mind....9 times out of ten I will be under armed...the bad guy did not think about weight and comfort when he left the house. And call me old fashioned, but for some reason I always picture my approach to a gun man from behind. I always wondered, if it came down to it, how I would feel taking someone out from behind. I guess I read to much Louis Lamour. Be safe....Thanks to the folks that do this everyday....and let's let the bad guys know that we carry...ALWAYS.0
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