Meds, insanity, and guns -- very long
No message intended by the title I gave this thread -- I had to call it something, that's all. And I'm not writing to offer or ask for solutions. I'm commenting. Others, I suspect, will have comments. In a number of the details of what I'm going to say, my knowledge is shaky at best -- feel free to correct me.
This latest school shooting and the reactions to it, the headlines I'm seeing on my Yahoo home page, comments from people here -- all hit close to home. Way too close to home.
A few years back I started teaching this kid named Joe how to shoot. He was, oh, roughly nine at the time. His mom and her "partner" are the sort of people who seem to attract major drama into their lives, and as a result the times I was able to get together with Joe became fewer and farther between -- these people constantly had a friend or family member dying, in jail, on the verge of death, going to court -- you probably get the picture. After my wife and I divorced, though, and I suddenly had a much more flexible schedule, I was able to get back in touch with Joe and his family. He's now thirteen. He also now owns three guns, a .22 rifle and two muzzleloaders I built, and has endured his first deer season (I say "endured" because it was a piss-poor season -- neither of us got a shot, let alone put meat in the freezer, and we worked our butts off trying).
Trying to see the connection between this situation and what happened in Illinois -- and Virginia -- and Arkansas and Colorado and...? Well, long before I became a part of Joe's life, trying to be as much like a father as I can, he was diagnosed ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and promptly medicated. He's been on meds ever since. I wonder sometimes how it might have been, if I had been his real father, if I'd been there when the doctor or doctors or whoever pronounced him in need of medication -- would it have made a difference? Would a higher level of expectations and less tolerance for excuses have improved his behavior to the point that he would have been a constantly-fidgety but basically normal little boy? I don't know. I do know I walk a fine line, careful not to step on his mom's toes, but at the same time being very firm on the point that I know Joe can control himself, to an extent, lacking his meds; I've seen him do it; and that his behavior, in my view, is more a matter of the choices he makes than the type or dosage of meds he's taking on a given day. His mother has her own medication issues -- pain pills for a series of herniated discs. The days she's neither irrational due to meds, or stressed due to the way she and her partner live their life, she's 100% behind me trying to instill a sense of duty and responsibility in her kid. Other times, she's either irrationally angry with him or irrationally defensive of his being, allegedly, unable to control himself. I gather Joe's meds change in type and dosage on a fairly frequent basis, so when she's on the pity potty nothing the kid does is his responsibility. Either he didn't have meds to take, or forgot, or the dosage is off, or the doctor put him on something different.... Always something.
I've read that the drugs used in controlling ADD and ADHD have two serious drawbacks -- one, if stopped, their absence really jacks a person out of shape, resulting in a bout of hyperactivity that would exhaust a Jack Russell Terrier; two, over time, the drugs themselves can trigger psychosis. Am I correct in recalling that something of the sort might have happened with one or both of the Columbine killers?
What the hell does one do in a situation like this? Rhetorical question; like I said, I'm not seeking answers. What "should have been done" way back when, before society went along with the idea of cramming meds down the throat of every kid that wouldn't sit still in class, is a pointless line of discussion. What to do now? God knows. I know I worry sometimes -- if the part about the drugs eventually triggering psychotic behavior is true, what am I doing teaching this kid to shoot, and allowing him the ownership of guns (kept at my house and thus under my supervision, but still....)? But if it's a matter of this might happen, or that it's possible but the odds are against it -- there's a gamble in that, isn't there? I roll the dice in the faith that a positive example and discipline will do as much to influence Joe's behavior as the drugs that his mother, his doctor, and his school insist he needs, and in the conviction that to take away not only access to the guns and hunting (and thus to 90% of the material things I have to share with him), but my trust, would do far more harm than any potential good.
Yet that's the dilemna we face -- as individuals involved with someone like Joe, as gun owners, as a society. We, collectively, have accepted that some people need drugs to function normally. It seems that many of the drugs that create a sense of "normal" also, at the same time, have the potential to be the fuse to a human bomb. And, as a society, we absolve of responsibility those who choose to stop their meds, go off the deep end, and do the unthinkable.
I say "as a society". I hope you realize that I don't mean to imply that I, or any of you on this forum (for the most part), share this idea, that a person made more-or-less sane by meds can make the therefore "sane" decision to stop taking his meds and become, therefore, too insane to be responsible for what he or she does as a result.
It's a hell of a state to be in. We've created whole class of people whose sanity depends on medication. Whether it did in the beginning, or not, it does now. We -- and now I mean the kind of people who participate on this forum -- advocate personal responsibility, and consequences for the failure to be responsible. Joe's mom and the sort of politicians she votes for tend to take the other view -- no matter what, it isn't Joe's fault. We can't discriminate against Joe (and, lacking at least the strong likelihood of his snapping out, I wouldn't have him discriminated against -- but I still hold him accountable for his actions). Joe needs his meds to stay straight, and, if he stops taking his meds, well, steps need to be taken to reduce the chances of his hurting anyone. Enter the politicians: we have the answer, and it's gun control.
I, on the other hand, have no answers. In this rambling, it may be unclear even what questions I'm trying to ask. All I know is, I'm treating Joe like a normal kid, trying to give him something of the wonderful exposure to the outdoors, guns, and the world of good men that I was given as a boy, and in return expecting simply that he act in a manner worthy of my trust. But -- he has issues, and long before I might ever have had any influence in the matter, medication was deemed the best way to take the edge off those issues. And, in Illinois, in spite of legal safeguards being in place and observed, in spite of medication and being aware that he needed to take his meds, a man with issues killed another bunch of people. I know for a certainty that the way of the antis, how they would and probably will do things, is wrong. I am far from certain as to what, now, can or should be done, that would be right. And, whether I like it or not, whatever answer is arrived at is liable to be dumped right on my doorstep.
Sorry for saying so much of really nothing.
This latest school shooting and the reactions to it, the headlines I'm seeing on my Yahoo home page, comments from people here -- all hit close to home. Way too close to home.
A few years back I started teaching this kid named Joe how to shoot. He was, oh, roughly nine at the time. His mom and her "partner" are the sort of people who seem to attract major drama into their lives, and as a result the times I was able to get together with Joe became fewer and farther between -- these people constantly had a friend or family member dying, in jail, on the verge of death, going to court -- you probably get the picture. After my wife and I divorced, though, and I suddenly had a much more flexible schedule, I was able to get back in touch with Joe and his family. He's now thirteen. He also now owns three guns, a .22 rifle and two muzzleloaders I built, and has endured his first deer season (I say "endured" because it was a piss-poor season -- neither of us got a shot, let alone put meat in the freezer, and we worked our butts off trying).
Trying to see the connection between this situation and what happened in Illinois -- and Virginia -- and Arkansas and Colorado and...? Well, long before I became a part of Joe's life, trying to be as much like a father as I can, he was diagnosed ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and promptly medicated. He's been on meds ever since. I wonder sometimes how it might have been, if I had been his real father, if I'd been there when the doctor or doctors or whoever pronounced him in need of medication -- would it have made a difference? Would a higher level of expectations and less tolerance for excuses have improved his behavior to the point that he would have been a constantly-fidgety but basically normal little boy? I don't know. I do know I walk a fine line, careful not to step on his mom's toes, but at the same time being very firm on the point that I know Joe can control himself, to an extent, lacking his meds; I've seen him do it; and that his behavior, in my view, is more a matter of the choices he makes than the type or dosage of meds he's taking on a given day. His mother has her own medication issues -- pain pills for a series of herniated discs. The days she's neither irrational due to meds, or stressed due to the way she and her partner live their life, she's 100% behind me trying to instill a sense of duty and responsibility in her kid. Other times, she's either irrationally angry with him or irrationally defensive of his being, allegedly, unable to control himself. I gather Joe's meds change in type and dosage on a fairly frequent basis, so when she's on the pity potty nothing the kid does is his responsibility. Either he didn't have meds to take, or forgot, or the dosage is off, or the doctor put him on something different.... Always something.
I've read that the drugs used in controlling ADD and ADHD have two serious drawbacks -- one, if stopped, their absence really jacks a person out of shape, resulting in a bout of hyperactivity that would exhaust a Jack Russell Terrier; two, over time, the drugs themselves can trigger psychosis. Am I correct in recalling that something of the sort might have happened with one or both of the Columbine killers?
What the hell does one do in a situation like this? Rhetorical question; like I said, I'm not seeking answers. What "should have been done" way back when, before society went along with the idea of cramming meds down the throat of every kid that wouldn't sit still in class, is a pointless line of discussion. What to do now? God knows. I know I worry sometimes -- if the part about the drugs eventually triggering psychotic behavior is true, what am I doing teaching this kid to shoot, and allowing him the ownership of guns (kept at my house and thus under my supervision, but still....)? But if it's a matter of this might happen, or that it's possible but the odds are against it -- there's a gamble in that, isn't there? I roll the dice in the faith that a positive example and discipline will do as much to influence Joe's behavior as the drugs that his mother, his doctor, and his school insist he needs, and in the conviction that to take away not only access to the guns and hunting (and thus to 90% of the material things I have to share with him), but my trust, would do far more harm than any potential good.
Yet that's the dilemna we face -- as individuals involved with someone like Joe, as gun owners, as a society. We, collectively, have accepted that some people need drugs to function normally. It seems that many of the drugs that create a sense of "normal" also, at the same time, have the potential to be the fuse to a human bomb. And, as a society, we absolve of responsibility those who choose to stop their meds, go off the deep end, and do the unthinkable.
I say "as a society". I hope you realize that I don't mean to imply that I, or any of you on this forum (for the most part), share this idea, that a person made more-or-less sane by meds can make the therefore "sane" decision to stop taking his meds and become, therefore, too insane to be responsible for what he or she does as a result.
It's a hell of a state to be in. We've created whole class of people whose sanity depends on medication. Whether it did in the beginning, or not, it does now. We -- and now I mean the kind of people who participate on this forum -- advocate personal responsibility, and consequences for the failure to be responsible. Joe's mom and the sort of politicians she votes for tend to take the other view -- no matter what, it isn't Joe's fault. We can't discriminate against Joe (and, lacking at least the strong likelihood of his snapping out, I wouldn't have him discriminated against -- but I still hold him accountable for his actions). Joe needs his meds to stay straight, and, if he stops taking his meds, well, steps need to be taken to reduce the chances of his hurting anyone. Enter the politicians: we have the answer, and it's gun control.
I, on the other hand, have no answers. In this rambling, it may be unclear even what questions I'm trying to ask. All I know is, I'm treating Joe like a normal kid, trying to give him something of the wonderful exposure to the outdoors, guns, and the world of good men that I was given as a boy, and in return expecting simply that he act in a manner worthy of my trust. But -- he has issues, and long before I might ever have had any influence in the matter, medication was deemed the best way to take the edge off those issues. And, in Illinois, in spite of legal safeguards being in place and observed, in spite of medication and being aware that he needed to take his meds, a man with issues killed another bunch of people. I know for a certainty that the way of the antis, how they would and probably will do things, is wrong. I am far from certain as to what, now, can or should be done, that would be right. And, whether I like it or not, whatever answer is arrived at is liable to be dumped right on my doorstep.
Sorry for saying so much of really nothing.
0
-
That's a very good read, mongrel. There is one thing I see here that will keep this young man from going over the edge, no matter what happens in his life. It's your's to give, and give without cost. His to recieve, and recieve without expectation. It's better and more powerful than any drug devised by medicine:
Love.0 -
Would a higher level of expectations and less tolerance for excuses have improved his behavior to the point that he would have been a constantly-fidgety but basically normal little boy?
Definitely- It's a pretty much accepted but undocumented fact that many forms of ADD/ADHD as well as oppositional defiant disorders stem from a parenting disorder rather than something innate in the child's chemistry or chromasomes. If you grow up as a young child learning that the only way you get attention, even negative attention, is when you act out, what do you learn?
I know Joe can control himself, to an extent, lacking his meds; I've seen him do it; and that his behavior, in my view, is more a matter of the choices he makes than the type or dosage of meds he's taking on a given day. His mother has her own medication issues -- pain pills for a series of herniated discs. The days she's neither irrational due to meds, or stressed due to the way she and her partner live their life, she's 100% behind me trying to instill a sense of duty and responsibility in her kid. Other times, she's either irrationally angry with him or irrationally defensive of his being, allegedly, unable to control himself. I gather Joe's meds change in type and dosage on a fairly frequent basis, so when she's on the pity potty nothing the kid does is his responsibility. Either he didn't have meds to take, or forgot, or the dosage is off, or the doctor put him on something different....
You are correct, somewhat. Most ADD/HD kids can find concentration comes with things that are novel, or something that really piques their interest. However, I think a lot of parents use the diagnosis as an excuse. " can't set boundaries because he doesn't honor them anyhow, so what is the point? Sound like Mom is looing for the "get out of jail free card"...
I've read that the drugs used in controlling ADD and ADHD have two serious drawbacks -- one, if stopped, their absence really jacks a person out of shape, resulting in a bout of hyperactivity that would exhaust a Jack Russell Terrier; two, over time, the drugs themselves can trigger psychosis. Am I correct in recalling that something of the sort might have happened with one or both of the Columbine killers?
No documentation of ether. Fact is, most person's with ADD/HD who don't use ADD/HD meds as kids will likely find another substance to abuse to quiet their minds, whether alchohol, weed, or others, in their adulthood.
What the hell does one do in a situation like this? Rhetorical question; like I said, I'm not seeking answers. What "should have been done" way back when, before society went along with the idea of cramming meds down the throat of every kid that wouldn't sit still in class, is a pointless line of discussion. What to do now?
Good question, and I have no good answer. If the meds give the kid chance of having a semi-normal childhood, I'm all for the meds, it would be just cruel to deny any child that. You cannot change the damage that has been already done. All anyone in your position can do is "damage control." Try some behavior mod stuff. Perhaps he can learn that he doesn't have to be in "freak out" mode to get attention, he will learn, and may become a functional human being.
My best wishes for you and the child. It's a tough road. Bless you for taking it. Sounds like you are a level-headed and caring individual. I have no doubt you will have the best interest of the child at heart.0 -
Excellent read mongrel.
Jim, you are exactly right. A little time and love can do wonders.0 -
Mongrel ADHD is not a very serious disorder, if indeed its a disorder at all his shooting and hunting with you is probably the only "normal" thing in his life. Dont give up on him, give him the chance to become as normal as you, you are showing him thats its OK to be normal. and yes most kids outgrow it, if you stick around for a few more years you be there to see it.
Remember its a good thing you do.0 -
quote:Originally posted by daveald
Mongrel ADHD is not a very serious disorder, if indeed its a disorder at all his shooting and hunting with you is probably the only "normal" thing in his life. Dont give up on him, give him the chance to become as normal as you, you are showing him thats its OK to be normal. and yes most kids outgrow it, if you stick around for a few more years you be there to see it.
Remember its a good thing you do.
I'm in it for the duration. I gave the kid my word, in the beginning, and now I love him like he's my own. He's also my gift to the next generation of liberal weiners -- a 13-year-old shooter, hunter, and gun owner who's already giving his mom crap about the way she votes [;)].
The source of my frustration and confusion is the amount of talk that's now going around -- even some on this board -- about keeping the "mentally ill" from being able to own or buy guns. Who decides the boundaries, should that come to pass? What's nuts, what's normal? To the sort of people who make it their business to regulate such things, it tends to be a "red flag" that someone would want to own or shoot guns to start with. By that standard we're all suspect.
I, for one, am going to basically dig in, go about my business as I've been doing -- Joe included -- and refuse to be sucked into any "common sense" solutions that will involve more regulations in regard to owning guns. As stated in another post, I'm sitting here sick and unable to work, and I have a ton of work to get done before the end of the month. Too much idle time on my hands and too much to get thinking about.0 -
mongrel My Stepson was diagnosed with ADHD/OD. I can give you a lot of real life experience information (18 yrs of it). The biggest thing you can do for him is lots of attention in a "very" structured environment. What I mean by that is they handle life very well when they know what expectations are, penalties/consequences for the violation there of, and their day runs on a tight schedule. Up at the same time, to bed at the same time, meals at the same time, etc etc.It really makes a difference. As far as meds go I can tell you what they are and how they work. With Anthony you could tell when he hadn't taken them.
YES this is over diagnosed by a lot of doctors and there is a lot more to it than just meds. If you want to know more just email me.0 -
mongrel
I understand completely your position. But there are a few disease processes out there that directly affect the way a person thinks, plans and reacts that are not normal. Bipolar disorder and those that are Schitzofrenic. Thinking people are out to get you, auditory and visual hallucinations and so forth.
Lets be realistic here. Those two disorders in no way are comparable to ADHD. The only thing that would be more difficult than a "normal" person for an ADHD person when it comes to guns is attention to detail and safety. I think we can all agree that when handling a firearm those two subjects need complete attention. On the positive side, if an ADHD person is interested in anything, they have a tendency to go overboard on the attention to detail of the subject they are into. So that wouldn't be a problem at all.
But there are mental diseases that absolutely make me think that the person who has them should probably not be able to access a weapon legally. I know that doesn't fit with a few people on this board as the thought is any restriction is bad, but some people just shouldn't have access to a gun. I don't think that ADHD fits into the mold of mental disorders that should be considered as warranting not owning a weapon.
I applaud you for your taking the time to spend time with this boy. It sounds like you are the type of mentor he needs. There are not many willing to take on and sacarfice now days for someone in need. You are worthy of commendation.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jeffery.boyd
mongrel
I understand completely your position. But there are a few disease processes out there that directly affect the way a person thinks, plans and reacts that are not normal. Bipolar disorder and those that are Schitzofrenic. Thinking people are out to get you, auditory and visual hallucinations and so forth.
Lets be realistic here. Those two disorders in no way are comparable to ADHD. The only thing that would be more difficult than a "normal" person for an ADHD person when it comes to guns is attention to detail and safety. I think we can all agree that when handling a firearm those two subjects need complete attention. On the positive side, if an ADHD person is interested in anything, they have a tendency to go overboard on the attention to detail of the subject they are into. So that wouldn't be a problem at all.
But there are mental diseases that absolutely make me think that the person who has them should probably not be able to access a weapon legally. I know that doesn't fit with a few people on this board as the thought is any restriction is bad, but some people just shouldn't have access to a gun. I don't think that ADHD fits into the mold of mental disorders that should be considered as warranting not owning a weapon.
I applaud you for your taking the time to spend time with this boy. It sounds like you are the type of mentor he needs. There are not many willing to take on and sacarfice now days for someone in need. You are worthy of commendation.
Thank you.
I agree completely that the sorts of illnesses you mentioned are a different breed of cat. My worry in regard to Joe (some of which has been eased by rcrxs old lady and the others who posted with extensive firsthand knowledge of the subject) is, one, what happens if he ever goes without the meds, or the meds themselves dangerously alter his thinking; and, two, given that a number of mdeical and educational "experts" consider him incapable of normal function without his meds, to what degree does that or would that condemn him as "mentally ill"?
Yet another point I didn't make, to begin with -- life in general is a roll of the dice. We do what we do, and when our motives are good it's with the simple expectation/hope that all will turn out well. I have to follow the same course with Joe. Otherwise, in the biggest and worst possible sense, I've not only given up on him, I've let him down. Not the example I intend to set.0 -
Interesting read.
I know a kid with what I would diagnose as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. He's 13 now and it's going to get tougher to control his medications. He takes meds to lift him up and others to bring him down, The kid is a mess when one or the other is out of balance, or worse, the perscription runs out.
He can have either uncontrolled rage at anything that is embarassing, or lows that scare em where he clings to his mother or anyone near by. His father as shotgun, three rifles, a revolver and a 9mm. No of which are kept locked up.
Fortunately for know, the little guy has the mentality of a 6 year old and to some extent, still has the innocense of youth, but he is growing. There are few times where I think all firearms NEED to be kept locked up in a house and proper education is not enough, but this is one of those situations.
Too high is going to be a danger. Too Low is equally a danger. The odds of the medications getting out of balance is very likely.0 -
Mongrel first of all ADHD is not a desease and it's not really a mental disorder its a learning disability, that is treated by medication, in my opinion a bad choice, but beyond my expertise, my nephew was diagnosed as ADHD and the school wanted him medicated, because they get more money, my brother refused, he took it upon himself to structer this boys life to the point of bathroom use(not really, just expressing the degree he went to) my nephew is now just turning 16 he is motivated (something ADHD kids dont have)pulling As & Bs from Cs&Ds, he should graduate highscholl on time, and is looking to join the Coast Gaurd(??) of all different afflictions Its not serious enough to get him barred from doing anything in life that he's capable of doing.It is not the kind of thing that will cause him to flip out and kill someone its not even going keep him from the service or becoming a cop or banker or what ever he can become.
I guess what I'm saying is dont overthink it, give him the love and stability you can, it's all you can do man.
If you keep up your the one who's going to end up with a neurosis.0 -
My experience, and keep in mind this is just my experience and not some documented fact, is that ADD/HD meds work only about 30% of the the time in a highly dramatic and positive way, 30% in a somewhat positive way, but are helpful with behavioral mod treatment, and 30% not much of a change at all. I'm not qualified to make judgements upon that, I'm not a doctor. 0 -
daveald --
[:p][:p][:p][:p]
Already there. It was a prerequisite for being me.
No, seriously, like I said, I'm sick, tired, and thinking too much tonight. The Nyquil should kick in fairly soon and then I'll be off to a good night's sleep -- the cure-all for most gloom-and-doominess.
I appreciate the positive responses this got.
Hell, the truth is, the kid's 13. That in itself would account for the vast majority of his behavior problems. Meaning: not problems at all. He's just 13.
'Nuff said. I'm gonna crash. Tomorrow I'll be embarressed I wrote any of this....[:D]
P.S. -- rcrxs old lady -- I like the Emerson quote in your signature box. Just about sums it up.0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
12 comments