Help, Need Ballistic data:
Most of you know I'm a LEO Detective where I work. I am also the Internal Affairs Officer, and by default I have to conduct extensive reviews of officer involved use of force incidents that occur while in the line of duty.
Unfortunately we had and incident this past weekend that involved the use of deadly force. The officer was forced to engage an armed subject with his duty side arm. As unfortunate as this entire incident was, it worked out for the good for all of the officers involved.
Since we are on a DOD US Army installation our officers are required to carry the same ammunition that our Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines carry while in combat. This means they carry full metal jacket ammunition (NATO ball) while conducting LEO duties in the communities they patrol.
I have never been a real big supporter of full metal jacket ammunition being used for Law Enforcement side arms. I'm, not talking about rifle ammunition. I understand that there are situations whereby a sniper on a special reaction team may need something that would penetrate better.
However, I personally feel that full metal jacket ammunition penetrates too much for safe use in a Patrolman's side arm. Case in point; this past weekend one of the rounds discharged went through the subject, went through the couch behind him, through the wall behind the couch, and lodge in another couch in the living room of the adjoining apartment.
I feel that if we were allowed to carry a different type of ammunition such as hollow points, fewer situations likes this would occur in the future. In my opinion a hollow point round would have stood a better chance of staying within the mass it was fired into, and the chance for a through & through shot would be greatly reduced, while still retaining the desired stopping power.
What I need from anyone who can provide it is direction to any known web sight, book, or report of any type where I can obtain data that would accurately reflect the pros & cons of the two different types of ammunition. Remember, this ammunition is intended for the use in a LEO's side arm. An LEO could very easily find themselves in a situation where he or she has to use deadly force while in the public domain. This means penetration must be taken into consideration. Any information provided will be used in the writing of an after action report of the incident in review.
Thanks.
Trinity +++
Unfortunately we had and incident this past weekend that involved the use of deadly force. The officer was forced to engage an armed subject with his duty side arm. As unfortunate as this entire incident was, it worked out for the good for all of the officers involved.
Since we are on a DOD US Army installation our officers are required to carry the same ammunition that our Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines carry while in combat. This means they carry full metal jacket ammunition (NATO ball) while conducting LEO duties in the communities they patrol.
I have never been a real big supporter of full metal jacket ammunition being used for Law Enforcement side arms. I'm, not talking about rifle ammunition. I understand that there are situations whereby a sniper on a special reaction team may need something that would penetrate better.
However, I personally feel that full metal jacket ammunition penetrates too much for safe use in a Patrolman's side arm. Case in point; this past weekend one of the rounds discharged went through the subject, went through the couch behind him, through the wall behind the couch, and lodge in another couch in the living room of the adjoining apartment.
I feel that if we were allowed to carry a different type of ammunition such as hollow points, fewer situations likes this would occur in the future. In my opinion a hollow point round would have stood a better chance of staying within the mass it was fired into, and the chance for a through & through shot would be greatly reduced, while still retaining the desired stopping power.
What I need from anyone who can provide it is direction to any known web sight, book, or report of any type where I can obtain data that would accurately reflect the pros & cons of the two different types of ammunition. Remember, this ammunition is intended for the use in a LEO's side arm. An LEO could very easily find themselves in a situation where he or she has to use deadly force while in the public domain. This means penetration must be taken into consideration. Any information provided will be used in the writing of an after action report of the incident in review.
Thanks.
Trinity +++
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you'll get no where with hollow point ammunition, it has been proven the even a hollow point can react as fmj, even hitting a leather jacket has been proven the block the cavity, and prevent it from expanding, you would have a better chance with frangible ammo {and it's lead free}, frangible ammo has been picked up by many agencies where over penetration could provide a problem 0 -
Have you tried contacting the FBI? They should have some data on this topic.
Back in the day...9mm ball ammo was one of only 2 pistol rounds that could defeat (soft) body armor, due to the shape of it's nose profile not catching on the Kevlar fibers (my gunsmith used to do a lot of penatration tests at his buddies shop, buddy being the owner of the Second Chance company).
Now getting your issue pistol changed to something that fires the 45ACP round would reduce the overpenatration potental (and lead to fewer wounded suspects) [:D] .0 -
Just read an article by Massad Ayoob that said the military has been issuing a special version of Federal's Expanding Full Metal Jacket to troops in Iraq. Might want to track that down. 0 -
Agree with Tailgunner. Contact the FBI. Might also see about state police. Get an expert opinion from them as to why they use other than FMJ. 0 -
I consider this book, and it's follow-ups, to be the definitive texts on the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Handgun-Stopping-Power-Definitive-Study/dp/0873646533/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203400909&sr=8-12
Some have critized Marshall's protocols with some merit in the purely scientific sense, but he was a street vet cop with gunfights under his belt, and his studies are based on actual shootings and autopsies, as opposed to theoreticians reporting on jello-blasting.
Of course, changing official policy requires a heckuva lot more than proof of what works best.0
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