Invasion of Privacy????
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/us/07bar.html?ei=5090&en=d0caa6c9bacf76ed&ex=1357362000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1199714806-NZ2agd4Kikkv8hShxGsvKg&pagewanted=print
If Your Hard Drive Could testify ...
By ADAM LIPTAK
A couple of years ago, Michael T. Arnold landed at the Los Angeles International Airport after a 20-hour flight from the Philippines. He had his laptop with him, and a customs officer took a look at what was on his hard drive. Clicking on folders called "Kodak pictures" and "Kodak memories," the officer found child pornography.
The search was not unusual: the government contends that it is perfectly free to inspect every laptop that enters the country, whether or not there is anything suspicious about the computer or its owner. Rummaging through a computer's hard drive, the government says, is no different than looking through a suitcase.
One federal appeals court has agreed, and a second seems ready to follow suit.
There is one lonely voice on the other side. In 2006, Judge Dean D. Pregerson of Federal District Court in Los Angeles suppressed the evidence against Mr. Arnold.
"Electronic storage devices function as an extension of our own memory," Judge Pregerson wrote, in explaining why the government should not be allowed to inspect them without cause. "They are capable of storing our thoughts, ranging from the most whimsical to the most profound."
Computer hard drives can include, Judge Pregerson continued, diaries, letters, medical information, financial records, trade secrets, attorney-client materials and - the clincher, of course - information about reporters' "confidential sources and story leads."
But Judge Pregerson's decision seems to be headed for reversal. The three judges who heard the arguments in October in the appeal of his decision seemed persuaded that a computer is just a container and deserves no special protection from searches at the border. The same information in hard-copy form, their questions suggested, would doubtless be subject to search.
The United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, in Richmond, Va., took that position in a 2005 decision. It upheld the conviction of John W. Ickes Jr., who crossed the Canadian border with a computer containing child pornography. A customs agent's suspicions were raised, the court's decision said, "after discovering a video camera containing a tape of a tennis match which focused excessively on a young ball boy."
It is true that the government should have great leeway in searching physical objects at the border. But the law requires a little more - a "reasonable suspicion" - when the search is especially invasive, as when the human body is involved.
Searching a computer, said Jennifer M. Chac?n, a law professor at the University of California, Davis, "is fairly intrusive." Like searches of the body, she said, such "an invasive search should require reasonable suspicion."
An interesting supporting brief filed in the Arnold case by the Association of Corporate Travel Executives and the Electronic Frontier Foundation said there have to be some limits on the government's ability to acquire information.
"Under the government's reasoning," the brief said, "border authorities could systematically collect all of the information contained on every laptop computer, BlackBerry and other electronic device carried across our national borders by every traveler, American or foreign." That is, the brief said, "simply electronic surveillance after the fact."
The government went even further in the case of Sebastien Boucher, a Canadian who lives in New Hampshire. Mr. Boucher crossed the Canadian border by car about a year ago, and a customs agent noticed a laptop in the back seat.
Asked whether he had child pornography on his laptop, Mr. Boucher said he was not sure. He said he downloaded a lot of pornography but deleted child pornography when he found it.
Some of the files on Mr. Boucher's computer were encrypted using a program called Pretty Good Privacy, and Mr. Boucher helped the agent look at them, apparently by entering an encryption code. The agent said he saw lots of revolting pornography involving children.
The government seized the laptop. But when it tried to open the encrypted files again, it could not. A grand jury instructed Mr. Boucher to provide the password.
But a federal magistrate judge quashed that subpoena in November, saying that requiring Mr. Boucher to provide it would violate his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Last week, the government appealed.
The magistrate judge, Jerome J. Niedermeier of Federal District Court in Burlington, Vt., used an analogy from Supreme Court precedent. It is one thing to require a defendant to surrender a key to a safe and another to make him reveal its combination.
The government can make you provide samples of your blood, handwriting and the sound of your voice. It can make you put on a shirt or stand in a lineup. But it cannot make you testify about facts or beliefs that may incriminate you, Judge Niedermeier said.
"The core value of the Fifth Amendment is that you can't be made to speak in ways that indicate your guilt," Michael Froomkin, a law professor at the University of Miami, wrote about the Boucher case on his Discourse.net blog.
But Orin S. Kerr, a law professor at the George Washington University, said Judge Niedermeier had probably gotten it wrong. "In a normal case," Professor Kerr said in an interview, "there would be a privilege." But given what Mr. Boucher had already done at the border, he said, making him provide the password again would probably not violate the Fifth Amendment.
There are all sorts of lessons in these cases. One is that the border seems be a privacy-free zone. A second is that encryption programs work. A third is that you should keep your password to yourself. And the most important, as my wife keeps telling me, is that you should leave your laptop at home.
Beginning Jan. 15, Adam Liptak's column will appear on Tuesdays. Online: Documents and an archive of articles: nytimes.com
/adamliptak.
I would like to add that I would like to see all individuals who use child pornography convicted, but I believe that unless you have probable cause there should be no search.
If Your Hard Drive Could testify ...
By ADAM LIPTAK
A couple of years ago, Michael T. Arnold landed at the Los Angeles International Airport after a 20-hour flight from the Philippines. He had his laptop with him, and a customs officer took a look at what was on his hard drive. Clicking on folders called "Kodak pictures" and "Kodak memories," the officer found child pornography.
The search was not unusual: the government contends that it is perfectly free to inspect every laptop that enters the country, whether or not there is anything suspicious about the computer or its owner. Rummaging through a computer's hard drive, the government says, is no different than looking through a suitcase.
One federal appeals court has agreed, and a second seems ready to follow suit.
There is one lonely voice on the other side. In 2006, Judge Dean D. Pregerson of Federal District Court in Los Angeles suppressed the evidence against Mr. Arnold.
"Electronic storage devices function as an extension of our own memory," Judge Pregerson wrote, in explaining why the government should not be allowed to inspect them without cause. "They are capable of storing our thoughts, ranging from the most whimsical to the most profound."
Computer hard drives can include, Judge Pregerson continued, diaries, letters, medical information, financial records, trade secrets, attorney-client materials and - the clincher, of course - information about reporters' "confidential sources and story leads."
But Judge Pregerson's decision seems to be headed for reversal. The three judges who heard the arguments in October in the appeal of his decision seemed persuaded that a computer is just a container and deserves no special protection from searches at the border. The same information in hard-copy form, their questions suggested, would doubtless be subject to search.
The United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, in Richmond, Va., took that position in a 2005 decision. It upheld the conviction of John W. Ickes Jr., who crossed the Canadian border with a computer containing child pornography. A customs agent's suspicions were raised, the court's decision said, "after discovering a video camera containing a tape of a tennis match which focused excessively on a young ball boy."
It is true that the government should have great leeway in searching physical objects at the border. But the law requires a little more - a "reasonable suspicion" - when the search is especially invasive, as when the human body is involved.
Searching a computer, said Jennifer M. Chac?n, a law professor at the University of California, Davis, "is fairly intrusive." Like searches of the body, she said, such "an invasive search should require reasonable suspicion."
An interesting supporting brief filed in the Arnold case by the Association of Corporate Travel Executives and the Electronic Frontier Foundation said there have to be some limits on the government's ability to acquire information.
"Under the government's reasoning," the brief said, "border authorities could systematically collect all of the information contained on every laptop computer, BlackBerry and other electronic device carried across our national borders by every traveler, American or foreign." That is, the brief said, "simply electronic surveillance after the fact."
The government went even further in the case of Sebastien Boucher, a Canadian who lives in New Hampshire. Mr. Boucher crossed the Canadian border by car about a year ago, and a customs agent noticed a laptop in the back seat.
Asked whether he had child pornography on his laptop, Mr. Boucher said he was not sure. He said he downloaded a lot of pornography but deleted child pornography when he found it.
Some of the files on Mr. Boucher's computer were encrypted using a program called Pretty Good Privacy, and Mr. Boucher helped the agent look at them, apparently by entering an encryption code. The agent said he saw lots of revolting pornography involving children.
The government seized the laptop. But when it tried to open the encrypted files again, it could not. A grand jury instructed Mr. Boucher to provide the password.
But a federal magistrate judge quashed that subpoena in November, saying that requiring Mr. Boucher to provide it would violate his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Last week, the government appealed.
The magistrate judge, Jerome J. Niedermeier of Federal District Court in Burlington, Vt., used an analogy from Supreme Court precedent. It is one thing to require a defendant to surrender a key to a safe and another to make him reveal its combination.
The government can make you provide samples of your blood, handwriting and the sound of your voice. It can make you put on a shirt or stand in a lineup. But it cannot make you testify about facts or beliefs that may incriminate you, Judge Niedermeier said.
"The core value of the Fifth Amendment is that you can't be made to speak in ways that indicate your guilt," Michael Froomkin, a law professor at the University of Miami, wrote about the Boucher case on his Discourse.net blog.
But Orin S. Kerr, a law professor at the George Washington University, said Judge Niedermeier had probably gotten it wrong. "In a normal case," Professor Kerr said in an interview, "there would be a privilege." But given what Mr. Boucher had already done at the border, he said, making him provide the password again would probably not violate the Fifth Amendment.
There are all sorts of lessons in these cases. One is that the border seems be a privacy-free zone. A second is that encryption programs work. A third is that you should keep your password to yourself. And the most important, as my wife keeps telling me, is that you should leave your laptop at home.
Beginning Jan. 15, Adam Liptak's column will appear on Tuesdays. Online: Documents and an archive of articles: nytimes.com
/adamliptak.
I would like to add that I would like to see all individuals who use child pornography convicted, but I believe that unless you have probable cause there should be no search.
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I agree with your final thought completely. 0 -
$30-$50 will buy an encription program which is password protected and unless someone has access to the password (or you provide it) no one is going to be able to see anything on your hard drive. The same program will erase any deleted photos and files so that they cannot be recovered. Forget all about emptying the Windows recycle bin, a 6 year old can get those files back and read everything that was ever deleted. It seems to me that each and every one of these pedophiles is either just plain stupid or blind to the fact that nothing on a computer is safe unless you MAKE IT SAFE.
"Excuse me sir but do you have any illegal porno on your computer"?
Why gee officer, I am not sure so lets have a look".
"Pardon me sir but you files are encripted and I can't read them".
"No problem officer, here is my password so just feel free to browse".
Really bright.0 -
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
[?]0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
So...are you one of those who would sacrifice liberty for security??? Our forefathers warned against such ideology.0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
If they would have just found those box-cutters in the car when it crossed the border 9-11 would have been stopped in it's tracks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
So...are you one of those who would sacrifice liberty for security??? Our forefathers warned against such ideology.
So you side with giving a possible terrorist liberty?
I am glad that you are not protecting our borders.0 -
Kristov, shoot me an e-mail with those programs
not very puter literate, so sounds like one i should have on the hard drive i use for GUN records with the growing gov sentiment towards them0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
Isnt there a quote (one i liked) that went something like:
Those willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
Edit: Krstov, could you post the name of that program/programs?0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
So...are you one of those who would sacrifice liberty for security??? Our forefathers warned against such ideology.
So you side with giving a possible terrorist liberty?
I am glad that you are not protecting our borders.
The key word being possible here...Yes, I do...a man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law...and an innocent man should not have his rights trampled on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SuburbanNoize
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
Isnt there a quote (one i liked) that went something like:
Those willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
Edit: Krstov, could you post the name of that program/programs?
Yep...and that is exactly the quote I was referencing above.0 -
Seems like an easy call to me. A laptop or notebook computer is the same as a loose leaf binder notebook, and should be subject to the same treatment. 0 -
I dont agree with the comparison of searching a computer hard drive is no different than searching a suitcase.
A suitcase can contain many harmful things.
Such as gun,knife,explosive,etc,etc.
As far as I know no item of that sort could be stored on a hard drive.0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Seems like an easy call to me. A laptop or notebook computer is the same as a loose leaf binder notebook, and should be subject to the same treatment.
James,
Some of the things that I have on the laptop I carry for work are considered intellectual property. We are not allowed to have them in hardcopy form outside of our secure office building. The reason that we can keep them on our computer is because our hard-drives are encrypted. So, it isn't the same.
pistoljim - I frequently travel outside the country for work, therefore enter the US from points elsewhere quite often. While I agree with the screening that I and my luggage go through when I come back, if they decided to strip search me and require that I show them every file on my computer every time I come home, I would definately take issue with that. If I give them a reason to do it (probable cause) then they are within thier rights to do it. Since I do not give them probable cause, they are violating my rights if they do it.
BTW, SafeBoot is the encryption software that I have on my work laptop.0 -
There is a very good program called Defender Pro which is not very expensive, maybe $25 at Wally World or Target. It also has some helpful file features that makes Windows functions like scandisk easy to use without hunting them down.
The encription program uses the Blowfish Algorithm which is extremely secure if you use a good password. Forget all about your e-mail passwords or anything remotely like them. You need a LONG password using both upper and lower case letters and some numbers mixed in with them. No birth day, SSN, the phone number of your favorite gun shop, your wife's maiden name; to be secure the password HAS TO BE KNOWN ONLY TO YOU! once these files are encripted it is virtually impossible to read them unless the password in provided and if you forget the password you are SCREWED my friends. Windows has a password protected file feature but it is worthlesssince there are ways in through the backdoor to read everything protected by Windows.
Another useful feature on Defender pro is the file wiper. As I said, don't put any faith in deleting the recycle bin because those files are not really gone and may stick around for a long time before they are over written. A good file wiper will use either DOD 5220.22-M (7 wipes) or Guttman (35 wipes). Picture writting something on a piece of paper in pencil and then erasing it once. Hold the paper up to the light and you can still read what was erased right? Now erase it seven times and it is tough to read. Wipe it 35 times and there is nothing left to read on the paper at all. There are other programs out there which are even more secure, we use one of these at my firm to protect our data from theft, but Defender pro should work for 99% of our members. I have no affiliation with Defender Pro and while I feel it offers a good value for the typical user feel free to look around at other programs.
I also use SafeBoot on my personal lap top.0 -
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by pistoljim
Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
So...are you one of those who would sacrifice liberty for security??? Our forefathers warned against such ideology.
So you side with giving a possible terrorist liberty?
I am glad that you are not protecting our borders.
Yes; the guilty sometimes go free to protect the innocent.
Our borders are not protected and never have been.0 -
It believe it all depends on a "reasonable" persons expectation of privacy. Do "reasonable" individuals feel a expectation of privacy with their laptops? If they do how much privacy?
For example the courts have ruled there is more of an expectation of privacy in ones home, than car.
I think if the material on the laptop was accessible by a simple click or two, of the mouse, then the owner did not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Because the material was easily accessible and not meant to keep people out. Now the encrypted files are what I would consider a HIGH expectation of privacy. For the files were secured in a fashion to prevent all but authorized personal to view.
1. What level of expectation of privacy does a "reasonable" person have, concerning a laptop?
2. Most of all DON'T BE A PEDAPHILE!0 -
For the majority of boobs wondering the streets of the USA a lap top is nothing more than a glorified Palm Pilot or the loose-leaf notebook that James mentions. For the rest of us the lap top is our briefcase and looking through my briefcase is no ones business. Getting back to the encription programs I mentioned. The Blowfish is very secure but nothing is going to be 100% safe. The weak link in encription is always going to be your password and when someone wants to see your encripted files they will attempt to break your password rather than the encription. How hard someone works on this depends on what they are hoping to find on your hard drive. If they think there might me photos of a few tennie boppers from your visit to Costa Rica they probably won't put up much of a fight. If they suspect that you have the locations of every terrorist cell in the United States they are going to haul the machine into the NSA and have several dozen geeks attack it. Of course the easy way to get in there is to use the method so loved by our Gun Broker members: Waterboard you until you give up your password. 0 -
quote:Maybe you two can carpool to NY and tell that to the families of the
victoms of 9-11.
I think that anyone entering this country should be searched from
head to toe.
Ahhh yes. GUILTY until proven inocent.
quote:So you side with giving a possible terrorist liberty?
I am glad that you are not protecting our borders.
If you don't like it you are free to move to another country void of the rights you are now free to exercise.
There has to be a balance. I personally don't want the US to become a police state and even if it did there is still not assurance we won't have another 911. Look at the world around you. There are many countries that have tighter security than the US but still have more bombings than we do.
Back on the subject I wonder what the interpretation would be for an external drive one wold be carrying fo that same laptop.0
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