a Navy question
The Navy announced they were re-implementing a Warrant Officer pilot program for the first time since early WWII and started accepting applications couple of years ago. Unlike commissioned officers who must rotate out of the cockpit and take desk jobs for career advancement, these guys would do nothing but fly. Sounds good.
The criteria to enter this progrm was E-5 through E-7, at least an Associates degree and under 27 years old.
Maybe some of the Navy types here could enlighten me on why they only received 69 applications. I would've expected people to jump at this opportunity. What's the down-side that's making people shy away?
The criteria to enter this progrm was E-5 through E-7, at least an Associates degree and under 27 years old.
Maybe some of the Navy types here could enlighten me on why they only received 69 applications. I would've expected people to jump at this opportunity. What's the down-side that's making people shy away?
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It might be the "Associates Degree" requirement as there may not be many E5-E7 types that have any type of college degree, even a two year degree in underwater basket weaving. Otherwise, I'm not sure why enlisted types would shy away from this. 0 -
When I was in the ARMY and was offered WO (helicopter pilot)training, it came with a long term enlistment. 0 -
It has been very hard to promote in the Navy in the past 15 years, so how many E-7's are really out there that are under 27? 0 -
must pass the phys exam and like it was stated, cpo by 27? fat chance. sounds like the wo's would just end up filling the trash billets flying cargo, utility v.i.p., VRC, or factory ferry flights to free up the big fly boys to have more time in the jets. 0 -
Well being and old Army guy I would guess the was the number of guys in the Navy that had the AA degree!! *G* 0 -
I was in the Navy, but I heard that, at the time I was in (Nam era), the Army had a WO program (helicopters) and all you needed was a High school diploma. I could be wrong--There may have been other requirements then.
Maybe the biggest downside--You were going to get shot at a lot.[:D][8D]0 -
The Army slogan was "High School to Flight School" 0 -
E-7 is the upper limit. What's the average age to promote to E-5 in the Navy? Probably 23-24?
You'd think more than just 69 would've been interested.
Reportedly, out of these only 14 actually ended up completing the training program.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
E-7 is the upper limit. What's the average age to promote to E-5 in the Navy? Probably 23-24?
You'd think more than just 69 would've been interested.
Reportedly, out of these only 14 actually ended up completing the training program.
I was E-6 at 24. Sounds like the Navy's plan needs some fine-tuning to get the desired results.0 -
I was HM2 (E-5) by the time I started my third year of enlistment. And I was a few months shy of 21. Joe
FYI..my uncle was AP2. That was aviation pilot, second class. Enlisted. Pics of him in white hat/bellbottoms with Naval Aviator wings looked rather (and proudly) odd. Joe0 -
Most of the enlisted guys who have degrees choose to get out an make some real money instead of committing long term to being overworked and underpaid.
I got my BS while I was still in. When I got out I was a 28 year old E-6 with 10.5 years of service. I tripled my salary my first year out.
Warrant officers don't get paid that much more than enlisted.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Flyin_Paulie
I was in the Navy, but I heard that, at the time I was in (Nam era), the Army had a WO program (helicopters) and all you needed was a High school diploma. I could be wrong--There may have been other requirements then.
Maybe the biggest downside--You were going to get shot at a lot.[:D][8D]
This was about 1969. They were recruiting enlisteds and making them 2nd Lieutenants upon completion of training. Why? Thousands of helicopters had been shot down/lost.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
This was about 1969. They were recruiting enlisteds and making them 2nd Lieutenants upon completion of training. Why? Thousands of helicopters had been shot down/lost.Total helicopter pilots KIA for all US military branches during the entire war was 1,096.0 -
Any speculation and guessing I could do would just be speculation and guessing. I found this article dated 25 January 2006 that says they only intended to select thirty applicants. Looks like it's a "test" program to see how it works out before they get too deep into it.
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22072
Navy Establishes Trial Warrant Officer-to-Pilot Program
Story Number: NNS060125-08
Release Date: 1/25/2006 12:59:00 PM
#65532;
(Captain's Call Kit - Important Navy information prepared in an easy to distribute format.)
From Chief of Naval Personnel Public Affairs
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The Navy is seeking applications from highly-qualified and hard-charging Sailors for a pilot program that will place 30 selected Chief Warrant Officers (CWO) in aircraft cockpits as pilots and naval flight officers.
The intent is to create flying specialists unencumbered by the traditional career paths of the unrestricted line (URL) community.
"The concept is simple," said Cmdr. Steve Knott, head of Aviation Placement, PERS-433. "Replace a percentage of the pilots and NFOs in squadrons that have large junior officer aviator populations and corresponding low department head opportunity with Chief Warrant Officers who can return to these squadrons again and again and perform the same duties they did before, with no career penalty."
Targeted communities include Patrol (VP), Electronic Attack (VQ(P) and VQ(T)) and the HSC and HSL helicopter communities.
Targeted enlisted candidates include those between paygrades E-5 and E-7 and also young enough to be commissioned by their 27th birthday (29 for NFOs); they must also possess an associate's degree or higher, meet aviation physical qualifications, pass Aviation Standard Battery test (ASTB) minimums and be eligible for a secret security clearance.
Enlisted Sailors from the Nuclear, Naval Special Warfare(SEAL/SWCC), Naval Special Operations (EOD/Diver) and the Master-at-Arms communities are not eligible.
Selectees will not be eligible for department head (DH) tours and will fill junior officer (JO) billets only. The intent is for flying CWOs not to fill JO billets that are normally considered career milestones for URL officers.
Thirty Sailors will be selected for the pilot program, commissioned as CWO2 prior to LDO/CWO indoctrination, and subsequently undergo flight training. Once winged, program CWOs incur an 8-year minimum service requirement for pilots (6 years for NFOs) and complete traditional sea/shore rotations between operational units and shore-based aviation production sources only (FRS, TRACOM, NSAWC, and Weapon schools).
The newly-winged aviators will receive Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) training and then report to the fleet.
Applications are due to Navy Personnel Command (PERS-432M) no later than March 31.
For more information, refer to NAVADMIN 031/06, available at "http://www.npc.navy.mil" or contact your Command Career Counselor.
For related news, visit the Navy Personnel Command Navy NewsStand page at "http://www.news.navy.mil/local/npc/"/.0 -
I was offered this opportunity.
I was 26, B.S. E-6 in rank.
1. NO JETS.
The rest is all here:
All you will ever do is fly, you will never hold any position of responsibility, so you can't compete with the other "officers", aviators, or otherwise in whatever squadron you ultimately end up in. They aren't promoting you, they are using you as a new kind of workhorse, and they will keep you at the bottom of the barrel of the officer ranks.
Also the review process on this was something like six months to a year, then an unknown period of time until you go to knife and fork school, then an unkown period of time until you class up at API, (when I was a survival instructor it was normal for the ensigns to wait as long as 6-9 months to class up. It would have been longer for the Warrant fliers because they wouldn't want to mix them in with the ensigns and make the ensigns look dumb.
It is also much easier to just cross over, go through OCS, class up and become an officer if you want to fly. Then they generally won't make you a pilot, they will offer you a WSO spot or nothing. I saw it every day, and to say I watched it happen to dozens of people would be a severe understatement. They will promise pilot slots, then when the day comes, the prior enlisted were getting the switch. Why? The pilot slots are used to recruit college kids to be officers, not the back seat slots.
Typical of the Navy, they wanted to say they were doing something, wanted to promote something, and some people, and then they didn't support it.
When I left the Navy with 10 years of service, they told me and told me and told me: I COULD NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT THE NAVY.
I was employed 3 months before I ever separated, I doubled my salary, I more than doubled what a comparative pay raise would have been if I would have transitioned into the officer/warrant/or LDO ranks.
My benefits are better, my retirement is better, my vacation is equal or better, and for the first time in my life I can actually take some vacation if I want to. I'm treated with respect and as a valued person within the company by everyone I have ever ran accross.
In short, the Navy will allow you to beg to remain somewhere in thier ranks, will allow you to work and bleed, and deploy, and deploy, and deploy, and then they will remind you, it's not good enough, however you haven't worked hard enough, and you are not competent to live without them. You can search through my posts on this web site for close to ten years, (this is my 2nd or 3rd screen name, thanks to deployments) and you could follow my navy career here, I had tremendous success, it was an invaluable expierence, but the real talented, the real ambitious, and the real educated, will discover that thier threats of nothingness without the Navy are simply not true.
If I had a family, or if I had something to consider outside of my own needs, they may have been able to convince me, that I had to stay.
I really liked the Navy, thier perspective on enlisted careers is totally crazy compared to other branches.
It is a great opportunity for those 69 guys, it's going to be really sad when the Navy beancounters decide it's not worth thier effort, to pursue this any longer, and all of a sudden these warrants become admin officers instead of aviators.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
Most of the enlisted guys who have degrees choose to get out an make some real money instead of committing long term to being overworked and underpaid.
I got my BS while I was still in. When I got out I was a 28 year old E-6 with 10.5 years of service. I tripled my salary my first year out.
Warrant officers don't get paid that much more than enlisted.
We're only talking about an Associates here, which doesn't exactly mean big bucks on the outside. I'm not sure if the Navy also does it this way, but it's possibly required to promote beyond E-7.
6-7 years ago the Navy dropped time-in-service requirements for enlisted promotion eligibility. I don't recall the details, but around this same time they also eased their early promotion eligibility requirements. You would think they'd now have lots of people under 27 in this E-5 thru E-7 window.
At the 6 yr. mark W-1 pay is around $700 per month highr than E-5. That's not an insignificant amount in the military. Factor in too the higher earning potential of a high time pilot on the outside.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mk 19
It has been very hard to promote in the Navy in the past 15 years, so how many E-7's are really out there that are under 27?
BULLS-EYE!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
We're only talking about an Associates here, which doesn't exactly mean big bucks on the outside. I'm not sure if the Navy also does it this way, but it's possibly required to promote beyond E-7.
I don't know how much things have changed since I retired, but when I was in an Associates Degree wasn't a requirement for advancement to E-8/E-9/W-2, but it was a BIG PLUS with the selection boards.
An Associates Degree isn't very hard to get. An active duty E-7 is about half way there just by being an active duty E-7.
I was E-7 when I got mine from Mohegan Community College through the Navy Campus for Achievement Program. I had about half of it for being an E-7 and they gave me credit for some computer courses I took at Guilford Technical Institute and a class at Georgia Institute of Technology. I took a few CLEP tests for the rest. I've never seen Mohegan Community College, but I've got the little tassel hanging from the framed degree. [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Warpig883
The Army slogan was "High School to Flight School"
Seems like a good policy, since College spoils IMHO...0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
Most of the enlisted guys who have degrees choose to get out an make some real money instead of committing long term to being overworked and underpaid.
I got my BS while I was still in. When I got out I was a 28 year old E-6 with 10.5 years of service. I tripled my salary my first year out.
Warrant officers don't get paid that much more than enlisted.
We're only talking about an Associates here, which doesn't exactly mean big bucks on the outside. I'm not sure if the Navy also does it this way, but it's possibly required to promote beyond E-7.
6-7 years ago the Navy dropped time-in-service requirements for enlisted promotion eligibility. I don't recall the details, but around this same time they also eased their early promotion eligibility requirements. You would think they'd now have lots of people under 27 in this E-5 thru E-7 window.
At the 6 yr. mark W-1 pay is around $700 per month highr than E-5. That's not an insignificant amount in the military. Factor in too the higher earning potential of a high time pilot on the outside.
It isn't the degree that gets them more money on the outside, it is the experience. You also have to remember that I was a nuke, so all the enlisted guys that I hung out with were also nukes. We could get out after 6 years and walk into a power plant operator job anywhere in the country with little or no extra training. Making quite a bit of money, too.
When I left in 2001, a degree (associates or bachelors) was not required for advancement.
As to the statement of removing time in rate requirements for advancement, that was only for a very select group of rates. It did not apply to 95% of the Navy. They did allow for early advancement with the new evaluation process, but it was extremely uncommon.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
Most of the enlisted guys who have degrees choose to get out an make some real money instead of committing long term to being overworked and underpaid.
I got my BS while I was still in. When I got out I was a 28 year old E-6 with 10.5 years of service. I tripled my salary my first year out.
Warrant officers don't get paid that much more than enlisted.
We're only talking about an Associates here, which doesn't exactly mean big bucks on the outside. I'm not sure if the Navy also does it this way, but it's possibly required to promote beyond E-7.
6-7 years ago the Navy dropped time-in-service requirements for enlisted promotion eligibility. I don't recall the details, but around this same time they also eased their early promotion eligibility requirements. You would think they'd now have lots of people under 27 in this E-5 thru E-7 window.
At the 6 yr. mark W-1 pay is around $700 per month highr than E-5. That's not an insignificant amount in the military. Factor in too the higher earning potential of a high time pilot on the outside.
It isn't the degree that gets them more money on the outside, it is the experience. You also have to remember that I was a nuke, so all the enlisted guys that I hung out with were also nukes. We could get out after 6 years and walk into a power plant operator job anywhere in the country with little or no extra training. Making quite a bit of money, too.
When I left in 2001, a degree (associates or bachelors) was not required for advancement.
As to the statement of removing time in rate requirements for advancement, that was only for a very select group of rates. It did not apply to 95% of the Navy. They did allow for early advancement with the new evaluation process, but it was extremely uncommon.
I have a friend who did just that. He is now pulling in over $100,000 a year working in a damn powerhouse for the Army Corp of Engineers.0 -
My son just passed the course for warrent officer,he is 38 and a navy chief,and is able to piolet 188s<1fmj> 0
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