US officials lied...............
"U.S. officials 'repeatedly lied about Afghanistan war for 18 years and hid the fact it was unwinnable', bombshell Washington Post report claims"
I was there 3 times for 8-10 months each time and I never saw us loose a fight? In fact I would say we kicked their ass at every encounter where we engaged them. Our losses would have been much lower if not for IED's and those killed more civilians than Soldiers.
I would say being over there and killing muslim terrorists and fanatics is better than cleaning up their mess here in the US. They will never have a strong central Government, they did have one when the Taliban was in charge. If winning is defined as an elected and benevolent central government and peace then we are delusional if we think that is going to happen in any of these muslim country's.
I was there 3 times for 8-10 months each time and I never saw us loose a fight? In fact I would say we kicked their ass at every encounter where we engaged them. Our losses would have been much lower if not for IED's and those killed more civilians than Soldiers.
I would say being over there and killing muslim terrorists and fanatics is better than cleaning up their mess here in the US. They will never have a strong central Government, they did have one when the Taliban was in charge. If winning is defined as an elected and benevolent central government and peace then we are delusional if we think that is going to happen in any of these muslim country's.
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America can never win a political war when the chain of command goes clear back to the white house toilet to get a decision to do everything.....today we cannot fight to win....read "the Lost Centuries" by Sir John Glubb about the mongol invasions and learn how they were the most advanced and fearsome fighting force in the world.....and they did it to .... WIN.....NO political correctness..... nothing less 0 -
I don't think the US has "won" in a war since the politicians started putting limits on the military leadership.
Korea - technically still on going, call it a draw
Viet Nam - a loss
Iraq - technical win by judges decision
Afghanistan - nope.
Another thing that makes winning a war impossible is to not have an end goal that is clearly defined. Both World Wars had clear end points. Korea got kinda fuzzy - "Stop the commies!". Viet Nam the same.0 -
Picking up on Sam's insight, and the tied hands aspect, the only thing that has been apparently unwinnable is the nation building goal of the political warmongers...the majority of Americans do not like the ramifications of such an aim, period. 0 -
+1
Kimi
I know I wasn't fighting in Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq to build a nation. I was there to kill the enemy and destroy his ability to fight. That is what the Military is for. The State Dept can do all the "Nation building" they want.
I was Iraq and Afghanistan when they held elections in 2005 and 2004 respectively. Both country's had a better turn out than we do in the US( 70% in AFG and 76% in IRQ) Those numbers should make Americans ashamed of themselves. The rules and restrictions on the people of both countries leading up to and during the elections were insane and if instituted in this country there would be maybe a 2% turn out. Not to mention the violence, killings, IEDs and car bombs we don't have to deal with.0 -
llama wrote:
Viet Nam - a loss
The US didn't lose there. The US could have wiped the country completely off the map but we quit rather than to kill millions. You think they wouldn't have wiped the US off the map if they had the means?0 -
Sam06 wrote:+1
Kimi
I know I wasn't fighting in Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq to build a nation. I was there to kill the enemy and destroy his ability to fight. That is what the Military is for. The State Dept can do all the "Nation building" they want.
I was Iraq and Afghanistan when they held elections in 2005 and 2004 respectively. Both country's had a better turn out than we do in the US( 70% in AFG and 76% in IRQ) Those numbers should make Americans ashamed of themselves. The rules and restrictions on the people of both countries leading up to and during the elections were insane and if instituted in this country there would be maybe a 2% turn out. Not to mention the violence, killings, IEDs and car bombs we don't have to deal with.
No one appreciates your service more than I do, Sam...and tens of millions of people feel the same as I do.
The State Dept AH's can take their families and people who think like they do over there and act as warriors and engineers until the cows come home. But no, they sit behind fancy desks, make huge sums of money in all manner of ways, live the easy life, and send our troops to fight and die year in and year out ad Infinitum. These long wars our nation's leaders keep us in and get our men and women maimed...burned/melted beyond recognition...blown to pieces, and drive good people out of the service in droves...not to mention the mental aspects they have to live with all of their lives. Drain the swamp and replace them with good people. That would be a dream that includes most everyone.0 -
Smitty500mag wrote:llama wrote:
Viet Nam - a loss
The US didn't lose there. The US could have wiped the country completely off the map but we quit rather than to kill millions. You think they wouldn't have wiped the US off the map if they had the means?
+1
I know a lot of VN vets who were in country for long periods of time in both regular army units and Spec Op units. We never lost a fight with the frickin Viet Cong or NVA.
Oh and these guys weren't cooks or Chaplin's aids
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Let's not confuse the terms fight/battle with who owned the real estate when all was said and done. Let's not confuse who was standing in the middle of the ring with arms extended in victory and who was branded a loser by definition. 0 -
would have to agree with Kimi, its not all the battles we won, it is who won the war, and the politicians wouldn't allow us to do that........ :x
I think it was Swartscoff? who said it best many years later during the wind down of gulf war, " how can we be expected to win a war when the enemy is ready to die for his cause, and we aren't even allowed to kill for our cause...."0 -
Idiots in Charge.
If you are going to go to War, then by God, Go to War.
If not, don't bother.0 -
U. S. officials lied. Oh no, say it isn't so!! Our government wouldn't lie to us. That would make us no better than a Banana republic!! Make believe all this is written in green!! :evil: :evil: :evil: 0 -
The military did not lose in Viet Nam. The politicians did. But then, what have they not lost at aside from becoming rich? :? 0 -
Our officials lie?
Are we talking about the United States?
Why would they lie? What would they gain?
I am not aware of them lying before...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability0 -
The only people who are surprised at this are people who have not looked at the past 100 years in Afghanistan.
No official lied to anyone who has any common sense.
Bush went into Afghanistan and Iraq without a defined end game and apparently with minimal understanding of the tribal culture that has, does, and will continue to exist.
I am no scholar, but history shows us that governance is achieved at the muzzle of a gun, be it wielded by a secular strong-man or militaristic cleric.
Democracy and freedom cannot be imposed upon those who fundamentally disagree with the underlying principle of individual liberty and individual value.
Over 150,000 people are no longer living because of our actions in Afghanistan.
Up to 300,000 people are no longer living because of our actions in Iraq post 2003.
Not for a minute can 'better there than here' justify these numbers.
GW Bush will go down in history as one of the worst Presidents in our history, second perhaps only to Abraham Lincoln.0 -
Don McManus wrote:The only people who are surprised at this are people who have not looked at the past 100 years in Afghanistan.
No official lied to anyone who has any common sense.
Bush went into Afghanistan and Iraq without a defined end game and apparently with minimal understanding of the tribal culture that has, does, and will continue to exist.
I am no scholar, but history shows us that governance is achieved at the muzzle of a gun, be it wielded by a secular strong-man or militaristic cleric.
Democracy and freedom cannot be imposed upon those who fundamentally disagree with the underlying principle of individual liberty and individual value.
Over 150,000 people are no longer living because of our actions in Afghanistan.
Up to 300,000 people are no longer living because of our actions in Iraq post 2003.
Not for a minute can 'better there than here' justify these numbers.
GW Bush will go down in history as one of the worst Presidents in our history, second perhaps only to Abraham Lincoln.
Agree, with OBama anywhere in the mix due to his promotion of racism among American citizens.0 -
IMHO, the American Government has been lying to the American Public since Dec. 7th 1941.
This past Dec 7th, watched a two hour long Special "Pear Harbor the day after," followed by another Special "Pear Harbor, The Truth." It was eye opening and damning. (History Channel.)
Worst President?
Get in line.0 -
The ability to wage war should be a congressional responsibility and not the presidents. 0 -
NO... I'm gobsmacked. So I guess it was a money grab for the well connected cronies. 0 -
A real US general, not some armchair version, said war is "Hell". Why we send good children to foreign lands to suffer for the lies of our politicians is a sin. Yes, US officials lied. How many more of our good soldiers must be killed, maimed, and deranged for the sake of these lies?
Eisenhower warned of the "Industrial military complex". When will they ever learn?0 -
wpageabc wrote:A real US general, not some armchair version, said war is "Hell". Why we send good children to foreign lands to suffer for the lies of our politicians is a sin. Yes, US officials lied. How many more of our good soldiers must be killed, maimed, and deranged for the sake of these lies?
Eisenhower warned of the "Industrial military complex". When will they ever learn?
George Washington warned against entanglement in foreign wars and just look now? We have becomes one of the worst foreign invaders on the planet forThe NWO with world corporations and The United Nations. We already are a trading block of Mexico,Canada and The USA as one entity.
With borderless immigration and leftist Democrats taking the helm we have no middle class left in America anymore, but we do have huge deficits and monstrous national debt with a reserve currency of Fiat money soon to implode.
But the blood of all of our veterans dying propping up One world government and big business is the worst thing that has happened to our sovereign nation.
Soon the word sovereign will be demonized by our leaders to brainwash the masses into becoming a prison planet.
serf0 -
A good read of US lies is "Bury my heart at wounded knee" a story of the sad journey of the Native Americans under US official broken promises and agreements. Ending in the disarming and slaughter of American Indian tribes....
Sound familiar? :ugeek:0 -
Smitty500mag wrote:llama wrote:
Viet Nam - a loss
The US didn't lose there. The US could have wiped the country completely off the map but we quit rather than to kill millions. You think they wouldn't have wiped the US off the map if they had the means?
The enemy would have thrown in the towel much earlier had they not had collaborators with in our own society and government assisting them. The US was winning that war militarily, and had they continued the bombing up north the enemy would have been driven to the table much sooner to sue for peace.0 -
casting wrote:The ability to wage war should be a congressional responsibility and not the presidents.
agree
and I think that is what the law says
congress declares war0 -
danielgage wrote:casting wrote:The ability to wage war should be a congressional responsibility and not the presidents.
agree
and I think that is what the law says
congress declares war
Too bad all the previous POTUS's (since WWII,) have all got around that, by not seeking to declare "War," In their Military endeavors. (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, ad nauseum.) Not to mention all the little "Wars," in between.
Simply declared "Police Actions," or "Interventions." Any sort of explanation for a obligation of U.S. forces, other than seeking a declaration of "War," (Because) that would not fly, or pass Congress.
Another abrogation of Power, and the Constitution, that has silently taken place. (Unnoticed, or simply unanswered?) No one has seriously been called out for it, since WWII ended.
Do you think that, an accident? (Not likely.)
More BS, shoveled onto the American populace, ad infinitum. We all know, the POTUS, pretty much declares "War," at this point. "A Republic," I think not. (Not for a long, long time now.)
(And) Yes, I still Vote.0
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