Take A Look. Is This Item Legal, Or Not?
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/829686204
I'm voting "not."
Had correspondence with seller. He thinks it is OK because it is old enough to be C&R eligible.
What say you?
I'm voting "not."
Had correspondence with seller. He thinks it is OK because it is old enough to be C&R eligible.
What say you?
0
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Bubba made SBR,,
vote NOT0 -
Yes.
I did a little search. Seems the Page-Lewis Arms Co. Model D Reliance was a .22 single shot RIFLE.
So what this feller is selling, is according to the NFA, a "weapon made from a rifle," and subject to a $200 transfer tax, IF it were registered already, which I'm pretty sure it has not been.0 -
pretty sure a bolt action rifle didn't come with a stock like that. or a barrel that short.
don't know if a C&R makes any difference. I'm leaning towards nope.0 -
Converting a rifle into a pistol is strictly a federal offense - so is possessing one...
Curios and relics status is null and void based on the alterations - no matter who did it or when it was done...
Once leaving the factory as a rifle it may not legally be cut down and altered into a pistol - age in this case is irrelevant...
Mark Christian will know the chapter and verse and legal code better then I.
Bad juju.
Mike0 -
He is listing it as a single shot pistol not a curio and relic or SBR
YOUR WELCOME TO MAKE AN OFFER-
make an offer??? How does that fit into the auction side rules of behavior and compliance.
Stupidity and ignorance is no excuse for breaking federal law.
Danger Will Robinson.
Mike0 -
looks pretty old. when was it done? after the factory and before 1934? or does that matter? 0 -
Page - Lewis model A - B - C - D rifles were produced from 1921 - 1926 (all types - rifles only) before being absorbed by Stevens arms company...
20" bbl was standard - 24" on special order sharpshooter and Olympic designated models...
Swinging breech blocks followed by simple bolt action entry level low price rifles of simplified design...
George Lewis was a gunsmith who had worked for Stevens before the war - who branched out on his own...
No pistols noted.
Mike0 -
say,is this the new glock everyone is waiting for 0 -
It is not legal according to ATF rules. Price is so out of line. Dont know what to say. 0 -
Maybe doing the overall length if the bayonet/knife is permanent? Like the Uzi 10? barrel vs 16? barrel. If not it would be classified as AOW? I would stay away. 0 -
Here?s another odd one
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/8459462920 -
Well, whether he did it, or Gunbroker did it, the auction is ended.
A good move, I reckon.
It's one thing to own a piece of contraband that can get you federal prison time, and quite another thing to advertise it, with pictures, where anyone in the world can see it.
A while back, I bought a lot of firearms from a police property room. Two of them were illegal contraband. Illegal contraband, from a LE agency! And I didn't know about it until I got them home and unpacked them.
One was a Glock, from which the serial number on the frame had been removed. The PD apparently felt that the serial numbers on the barrel and slide were sufficient. They were not. What did I do? First, I stripped the gun to the naked frame, creating a parts kit that I later sold. Then, I poured diesel fuel over the frame and set it alight, adding more fuel until it was totally consumed. I noted the destruction in my bound book.
The other was a Mossberg pump shotgun. Stock was cut off at the pistol grip. Barrel was cut down. OAL was OK, but the barrel was 17 1/2 inches. Some goober cut it ONE-HALF INCH too short! So, I removed the barrel and sold it separately, and CHEAP, on Gunbroker, with a warning to NOT install it on a firearm without prior BATFE approval. Then I removed the goobered-up pistol grip, because it was ugly, no illegal, and sold the action and mag tube.
No way would I have put either of these items, as I received them. up for the world to see on Gunbroker.0 -
The .22 would be a Short Barreled Rifle- barrel length less that 16 inches, overall length less than 26 inches. It is NOT a C&R firearm (not in original configuration) but even if it were, still contrary to the 1934 NFA. 10 years in FCI Atlanta, loss of your right to ever own a gun- and your new roommate has just told you your name is now Nancy.
The Arisaka may be legal. Has a 17" bbl, and overall looks to be over 26".
There ARE C&R rifles that have barrels shorter than 16", and are NOT NFA firearms. Things like the little Winchester Trapper lever actions with 14" barrels. The ATF publishes (on line) a list of guns that have been removed from the NFA. They are listed by serial number. The butchered 22 is not in that category. For God's sake- if you don't know, ASK someone that does!0 -
nunn wrote:It's one thing to own a piece of contraband that can get you federal prison time, and quite another thing to advertise it, with pictures, where anyone in the world can see it.
A man I knew who had spent much of his life living in a vodka bottle but had sobered up (or at least quit drinking) had several nice pieces displayed on his living room wall. Among them was a 12 ga single shot cut down to pistol grip and about 8" barrel. Closer inspection showed that the serial number had been obliterated with many holes from a sharp punch.
When I pointed out to him that this one display of stupidity could cost him all his other guns and prison time he wanted me to dispose of the 12 gauge. I refused.0 -
David,
3 of the worst examples of illegal firearms I have ever seen and handled came from police detectives in a nearby town - including one gem that had been converted to full auto - showed up in a paper bag with blood on it...
A police officer in town was quietly fired after being discovered selling guns out of the trunk of his squad car in uniform with no paper work or nics check..
We routinely bough job lots of evidence room pistols from law enforcement in southern states - but ended up running away from such sales due to the continued appearance of illegal altered defaced sanitized guns.
Some would arrive loaded with a round in the chamber when delivered and unboxed - once a grenade filled with stuff that blows up only having the fuse assembly removed.
We bought what was identified as a Johnson rifle and received a Johnson light machine gun (I can assure you they look nothing alike)
A full auto carbine with giant infrared snooper scope...
You sir are the last of a dying breed of honorable men who served the public - I wish there were more with your integrity and moral compass.
Mike0 -
Could he have permanently plugged the barrel (make it non-firing)?Wyatt Burp wrote:nunn wrote:It's one thing to own a piece of contraband that can get you federal prison time, and quite another thing to advertise it, with pictures, where anyone in the world can see it.
A man I knew who had spent much of his life living in a vodka bottle but had sobered up (or at least quit drinking) had several nice pieces displayed on his living room wall. Among them was a 12 ga single shot cut down to pistol grip and about 8" barrel. Closer inspection showed that the serial number had been obliterated with many holes from a sharp punch.
When I pointed out to him that this one display of stupidity could cost him all his other guns and prison time he wanted me to dispose of the 12 gauge. I refused.0 -
No. No. Never. Not ever.
Receiver must be torch cut into 3 separate near equal pieces.
Blocking the barrel does not work - you can unblock it or swap it out.
The batfe and GCA have been updated very carefully to prevent anyone anywhere anytime any way from finding a loop hole or work around or exception to these affairs.
Not a good idea.
Mike0 -
Thanks. I guess the character Mississippi in the movie ElDorado would be in violation of federal law.
Not to mention he accidentally sot John Wayne, which would make him a pariah for fans of the Duke.
(It?s been on tv a lot lately)
Here in Appalachia sawed off shotguns and moonshine stills are not unheard of.
People tend to keep their lips closed.0 -
jimdeere wrote:Thanks. I guess the character Mississippi in the movie ElDorado would be in violation of federal law.
but didn't john wayne buy it for him???? straw purchase.....0 -
Not meant as a rip on you or your behavior...
It's just not a subject that has much play in it - without causing trouble or being in trouble.
Look to David's example - destroy the illegal part - record it in your bound book - follow the law and procedure - sell the legal stripped parts to ameliorate the loss.
I have done the same on countless occasions - and came out clean after a batfe regular random audit...
Just not worth the trouble.
A valid question to establish and clarify current law.
Mike0 -
ahh you don't know anything. you haven't done anything on no occasions, you're just lyingmrmike08075 wrote:Not meant as a rip on you or your behavior...
It's just not a subject that has much play in it - without causing trouble or being in trouble.
Look to David's example - destroy the illegal part - record it in your bound book - follow the law and procedure - sell the legal stripped parts to ameliorate the loss.
I have done the same on countless occasions - and came out clean after a batfe regular random audit...
Just not worth the trouble.
A valid question to establish and clarify current law.
Mike0 -
Like has been said several times already, no, not legal.
Had he done a form 1 prior to chopping it down it could be legal but anyone that did that would know what they are selling and would mention that it is an SBR and also mention there would need to be an NFA transfer on a form 4.
But looking at the guys description with half the words misspelled I'm nearly positive the guy didn't navigate through the form 1.0 -
Only 3 ways to do that:
1. Cut the barrel to 16" and keep the overall size to 26"
2. Fill out the NFA pay $200 when it come back do what you want
3. Find 2 of them, cut each receiver in half, weld one to the other so now you have a "pistol" receiver do what you want0 -
A close friend of mine is a retired justice dept. employee. Took me thru the Chicago vaults of confiscated weapons. Just unbelievable the ingenuity of some of these weapons. Most made of "parts" redly available. 0 -
asop wrote:A close friend of mine is a retired justice dept. employee. Took me thru the Chicago vaults of confiscated weapons. Just unbelievable the ingenuity of some of these weapons. Most made of "parts" redly available.
That would be cool to see, for sure.0 -
Even if it was legal,...who would want that ridiculous looking pos? 0 -
Marc1301 wrote:Even if it was legal,...who would want that ridiculous looking pos?
that was my feelings as well.........0 -
,,well,yeah0 -
The ATF rules state 3 different angle cuts with a torch removing 1/4 inch of steel at each cut. Then the firearm is now a proper cut receiver. It can be completely disassemble first, then cut it. I have cut thousand of them up. Never had a problem when I went threw an audit. Even a glock, just cut it up no need to melt. I have see all kind of defaced serial numbers. all different lenght of barrels. Only one way to save a short barrel is to add a poly choke,flash suppressor, muzzle break.type device. Which has to be drilled pined an welded in place. Not able to be removed. That is how It was explained to me many times. 0 -
For what it is worth, there are two ways to destroy/ deactivate an NFA firearm that the ATF will accept. The first is torch cutting the receiver into 3 or more pieces- and yes, the ATF has diagrams. No, saw cutting is not acceptable- a cutting torch removes a wide strip of metal. A fine saw cut- bits can be welded back.
The second method is to completely melt the receiver. As in industrial furnace, turn into liquid metal.
Plugging a barrel or welding a bolt in place is not accepted as destruction.0
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