Guns from factory with no serial numbers
Do you guys ever run into problems selling guns that came from the factory that were not required to have a serial number on them?
I know that some guns like my O. F. Mossberg and Sons Inc. Model 151M-B .22 LR that was manufactured from 1947 to 1958 weren't required to have serial numbers on them even after the National Firearms Act of 1934. I would assume it's due to it being a .22 caliber but I've not been able to find that written any where in the NFA. I know that after the Gun Control Act of 1968 .22s were required to have a serial number.
My old Mossberg 151M-B with the M4c Mossberg scope was one of the guns I inherited from an uncle back in 1999 and I haven't shot it since he let me shoot it when I was a kid back in the 50s. He killed a lot of squirrels with that old rifle. I going to have to take it out and shoot it sometime before I get so old that I can't.
I know that some guns like my O. F. Mossberg and Sons Inc. Model 151M-B .22 LR that was manufactured from 1947 to 1958 weren't required to have serial numbers on them even after the National Firearms Act of 1934. I would assume it's due to it being a .22 caliber but I've not been able to find that written any where in the NFA. I know that after the Gun Control Act of 1968 .22s were required to have a serial number.
My old Mossberg 151M-B with the M4c Mossberg scope was one of the guns I inherited from an uncle back in 1999 and I haven't shot it since he let me shoot it when I was a kid back in the 50s. He killed a lot of squirrels with that old rifle. I going to have to take it out and shoot it sometime before I get so old that I can't.
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Imported handguns were required to have serial number beginning in 1919. The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 required serial numbers on domestic handguns, and also created the system of Federal Firearms Licenses which exists today. The GCA 1968 mandated unique serial numbers on all firearms; handguns and long guns. For instance, a S&W Model 10 and a Model 27 could not have the same serial number, despite their being different models. Unless state laws enter into it, enter NSNV (NO Serial Number Visible) and you're golden. 0 -
I butted in once at a gun counter at a out door place maybe cabelas or bass pro do not recall
but a old fellow had a 22 bolt action with no serial number. he needed the ejector repaired they were going have it sent out and repaired for him but suggested to engrave a number on the gun for him , that some how it must have skipped that step in the manufacture of it . :shock:
I know should have kept my mouth shut and do most of the time just walk away when I hear such things .
however I just said for what its worth my view ( very little just ask my wife ) if mine I would not engrave any thing on it lots of old rifles had no serial numbers it was not a law when they were made even a inexpensive guns value will not be helped by having some one engrave a number into the barrel or receiver just so the store can log it in .0 -
As Mark said- serial number was not required by US law on rifles and shotguns until the 1968 Gun Control Act. What many folks THINK is a serial number on JC Higgins branded guns is actually the Sears Model number. I am an aspiring collector of older Mossberg .22 rifles- I have about 15 guns that are pre '68. ONE of them has a serial number- it was made for the US Govt (Mossberg 44US). The rest were recorded in my bound book as NSN- No Serial Number. Sadly, have met more than 1 "dealer" that was unaware of that.
Having said that- if you have a pre'68 gun that DOES have a serial number- it is still a felony to remove or obliterate it. But there is no requirement that you add one to a gun that has never had one.0 -
The Western Field 550CD shotgun (re-badged Mossberg 500.) 20ga pump that I picked up about a couple weeks ago had a long poorly done electro pencil # scrawled along one side of the receiver. It was clearly seen when holding the firearm, but not in the photo's. (The Seller had not pointed it out. :? )
I got home with it, and pulled up the auction photo's. Enlarged the one, yep - there it was.
I was not thrilled about it.0 -
have one of those mossbergs. looking for the front forstock. any ideas 0 -
You have no idea how many Sears and jc higgens and other private label store branded guns are entered in FFL bound books by the catalog number...
I used to assist and field calls and emails from a vast network of dealers to assist with identification or evaluation - especially post BATF audit after they got dinged for errors...
You and up with thousands of guns at least if not 10's of thousands entered under the same serial number which in reality is the model or catalog number...
At one point during the golden age it was common to put your social security number or dog tag number on guns - often in vibro pencil...
Ruger got dinged for putting custom ordered serial numbers on guns for customers - often selling them a dozen different models with the same serial number - or to match the number of a gun someone already owned...
1911 production - notably the Remington overlap series have identical or duplicated serial numbers...
I am not trying to pretend I am smarter than anybody else or better - just to explain an issue I have seen first hand...
How does a manufacturer or gunsmith doing Mauser spotters avoid problems when applying a new serial number to a sanitized parts build gun - how does he get a serial number and how does he know it's not a duplicate...
Another problem is makes and models and brands being entered wrong in FFL bound books...
Or the serial abuse of "unknown maker" that Nunn and I touched on last week.
Although in my experience the batf audit of a gunshop / FFL dealer I lived through the agent was nice and friendly and helpful and a terrific guy - a sloppy or lazy or uneducated dealer can get in a lot of trouble and get heavily fined or suspended or revoked or imprisoned.
I thought we had all the guns in the shop entered in the FFL bound books - but guns in for cleaning or repair were present but not recorded (that was okay as long as there was a paper trail of receipts or estimates or a work order)
Where I was surprised was the gun I was carrying - my personal CCW EDC piece needed to be noted and recorded - not in the bound book but in the shops "pink card" employee file - apparently it's the most common error found and almost no dealers ever get it right
Just some random thoughts you may find interesting.
Lovely rifle - I own one but not with the much coveted amazing scope and mount you have - that's a keeper and gives me gun envy...
Mike0 -
I have a Springfield 311 double barrel and a Stevens 24-.410/22 from the pre serial number days. 0 -
KenK/84Bravo wrote:The Western Field 550CD shotgun (re-badged Mossberg 500.) 20ga pump that I picked up about a couple weeks ago had a long poorly done electro pencil # scrawled along one side of the receiver. It was clearly seen when holding the firearm, but not in the photo's. (The Seller had not pointed it out. :? )
I got home with it, and pulled up the auction photo's. Enlarged the one, yep - there it was.
I was not thrilled about it.
That sucks.
I see that several times almost everyday looking at auctions. Big write up but no mention of the electro-pencil bubba BS. More guns have been ruined that way. I have 2 of them; a S&W M14 and a Remington 580. I knew they had the extra numbers and I got them for a good price. The 580 sits out in the barn and M14 gets shot a whole bunch.0 -
OK :
I own ( & have owned several ) Firearms with No Serial #s :
I understand because of knowledge of the laws pertaining to this factor back in the day !
Most unusual and interesting to me is a Butler .22 (short) derringer from apx. 70s with OUT a SN# ???
Brings up a few thoughts and ideas how and why ???
Thanks !!!0 -
badge4516 wrote:have one of those mossbergs. looking for the front forstock. any ideas
There's a Mossberg 151M-B parts gun up for auction on GB at this time and the high bid is just $38. This is the same model as mine.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/8458948890 -
Almost all of the Model 37 Winchesters( 1936-1963) have no serial numbers. However, I have a dozen or so with a five or six digit serial number just under gauge designation on barrel and slightly above fore end stock. They were destined for export sales, so don't let anyone tell you the '37's never had a serial number. Most of the serial numbers seemed to be confined to the Youth Gun that came out in 1958 with the 26" Modified Choke Barrel.
I recently ran across a 32'" Thirty Seven on GI that claimed to be serial number 8. It had a factory letter from Fabrique in SC that took over some of the guns and records from Winchester. Well, Fabrique is mistaken and if that info came from Winchester, they made a mistake also. I called the seller and the 8 is located under the break lever. I have many with that 8 under the break lever.
I have probably almost 150 Thirty Seven Winchesters with at least 50 that I have completely restored in my almost 77 years. I have I believe every configuration that Winchester ever made in the '37 except one that says US Property. In my humble opinion the 20Ga Red Letter with 32" barrel is harder to come by than the 28Ga with 30" barrel. Stogers claims they made a 28GA with 32" barrel, but I have never seen one or known anyone that has.
One thing I was never able to figure out or document. A large "A" on the belly of a Red Letter receiver right next to the fore end stock.
Sorry, I did not mean to ramble on about my 37's in a serial number discussion but thought you fellas would like to know a little extra. I guess I know a couple of things about the '37's including their strengths and weaknesses. If I can ever help on the 37's sing out.0 -
Few years back Gander Mountain in Middletown, NY would not take a 37 Win on trade. Reason: No serial number, Corporate policy. They are gone now and good riddance.
Same thing in Richmond, Va. right around the corner from Greentop. Bought a NM Garand there when I was 18. Bought a couple boxes 16ga ammo there a couple years ago at 74. Family owned I think, nice folks and very helpful.0 -
Smitty, O.F. Mossberg Model 340 BD, AC KRO GRUV, Most accurate .22 ever laid my hands on. Will out shoot 52D Winchester or both my Anschultzes any day any ammo. Go figure. If you ever see one, buy it, you will not be sorry. 0 -
You would not believe how many owner etched numbers I have removed in restoring my old '37 Winchesters. In addition to nails and broken files to make up for broken springs and extractors. I think one of my most prized possessions was a 1936 Michigan hunting license in perfect condition rolled up in the stock bolt hole of a 1st year '37 Red Letter Pigtail. I laminated the license and attached it to the trigger guard like a hang tag. The young fella was 15 when he purchased the license for $1. Tracked him down and he had died three years previous and widow still alive at 93 with her daughter. Looking in that hole in the butt stock kind of like pulling out the back seat of chevy/ford in the old days looking for goodies when we were younger.Ditch-Runner wrote:I butted in once at a gun counter at a out door place maybe cabelas or bass pro do not recall
but a old fellow had a 22 bolt action with no serial number. he needed the ejector repaired they were going have it sent out and repaired for him but suggested to engrave a number on the gun for him , that some how it must have skipped that step in the manufacture of it . :shock:
I know should have kept my mouth shut and do most of the time just walk away when I hear such things .
however I just said for what its worth my view ( very little just ask my wife ) if mine I would not engrave any thing on it lots of old rifles had no serial numbers it was not a law when they were made even a inexpensive guns value will not be helped by having some one engrave a number into the barrel or receiver just so the store can log it in .0 -
I have what I believe is a stripped Winchester model 37 receiver - raw stainless steel (it never tarnishes or rusts)
At least the experts here once also thought it to be a win 37
I would have to dig it out but I believe it's unmarked
Any advice or input??/
Mike0 -
Raymond- re: Gander Mountain and Greentop. When Gander opened they stopped by Greentop, told them they might as well close, because Gander was going to put them out of business. Fast forward 5 years- Gander was closed. Greentop took over their building, and moved over there. They are doing better than ever! 0 -
Have sears model 311.7 I think 12ga with no serial number. 0 -
Mike, not aware of any that are stainless. If you can find time send me a picture. 370 and 37A not my Forte. Their is a Japanese copy cat also. To me they are all junk except the 37.Do all my polishing by hand to try and match factory. Machines(Baldor type) are deadly to good results in inexperienced hands. (I see them all the time on GB) The round piece at the breech that the firing pin goes thru is brazed in and will look like copper or brass that you can see sometimes. Sometimes a real problem if leaked thru outside surface, will not take bluing. I spray with just plain old WD40 before they hit the tanks. Last a very long time before it will oxidize. I had one real nice 37 receiver heat treated and then coated with that clear stuff and I filled in Red Lettering with a special gold paint. It really looks as nice as Turnbull's work. Are you sure the receiver was not coated with something after polishing? Unmarked? should have Win proof to left of Sighting notch on Red Letter. Inspectors marks under break lever, inside belly rarely, and frequently end of lower tang sometimes rarely at end of trigger guard. Same thing for blue bellies. Even without markings, I think I would know if it is a 37 receiver.mrmike08075 wrote:I have what I believe is a stripped Winchester model 37 receiver - raw stainless steel (it never tarnishes or rusts)
At least the experts here once also thought it to be a win 37
I would have to dig it out but I believe it's unmarked
Any advice or input??/
Mike0 -
Yep, and I think the building was already Green and did not need to be repainted11b6r wrote:Raymond- re: Gander Mountain and Greentop. When Gander opened they stopped by Greentop, told them they might as well close, because Gander was going to put them out of business. Fast forward 5 years- Gander was closed. Greentop took over their building, and moved over there. They are doing better than ever!
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I will endeavor to dig it out and arrange to send you some pictures - I appreciate the offer.
When I say stainless - I was making an assumption based on the fact that it's so unblemished and has no rust - I have had the thing for over 20 years and it just always looks perfect and I have done nothing to it except wipe it down with a treated gum cloth a handful of times.
Your thread response has triggered better memory responses - I believe we did establish it as having a correct proof mark.
It was an ask the experts question - perhaps I can dredge it up and post a link so you may examine the previous discourse...
I have always assumed it was old and early - I never considered the Japanese licensed copies.
It sat in my project gun and parts / accessories pile for some time - hung on the wall in a diorama / shadow box display - and on my desk as a paperweight.
Like many other similar items I always planned on nailing down it's origins and if it was a 37 to possibly return it to working order - a platform for parts to be added.
I had considered a .410 or 28 gauge but did not know if they were a different receiver from say a 12 gauge gun.
At this point if it is a 37 and a special item perhaps it's time to pass it on to someone like you or someone who would build it out.
I am rather fond of single shot break open shotguns - though most of mine are cheaper fare or modern arms...
I do hot have a 32 gauge anymore - I passed it on to a worthy man recently to fill a hole in his collection - and three rolling block shotguns is probably more than enough (I tend to end up with 3 examples of many long guns - I know I am a wee bit touched in the head)
Thanks for the reply - nag me if I forget.
This is one of the primary driving factors for my participation here - you are an example of why the membership and family here is special.
Mike0 -
Mike, thank you for your kind words. I really enjoy building up 37 receivers and restoring. I am not crazy about doing barrels especially near the lettering. It seems Fleabay gets the internal parts and GB gets the receivers because most realize that receivers even though no serial number still requires FFL. A whole complete 37 receiver on Fleabay went for $145 last week. A violation of Federal law. I guess many think the ATF has bigger fish to fry until it hits home. I have too much to lose and follow the letter of law.mrmike08075 wrote:I will endeavor to dig it out and arrange to send you some pictures - I appreciate the offer.
When I say stainless - I was making an assumption based on the fact that it's so unblemished and has no rust - I have had the thing for over 20 years and it just always looks perfect and I have done nothing to it except wipe it down with a treated gum cloth a handful of times.
Your thread response has triggered better memory responses - I believe we did establish it as having a correct proof mark.
It was an ask the experts question - perhaps I can dredge it up and post a link so you may examine the previous discourse...
I have always assumed it was old and early - I never considered the Japanese licensed copies.
It sat in my project gun and parts / accessories pile for some time - hung on the wall in a diorama / shadow box display - and on my desk as a paperweight.
Like many other similar items I always planned on nailing down it's origins and if it was a 37 to possibly return it to working order - a platform for parts to be added.
I had considered a .410 or 28 gauge but did not know if they were a different receiver from say a 12 gauge gun.
At this point if it is a 37 and a special item perhaps it's time to pass it on to someone like you or someone who would build it out.
I am rather fond of single shot break open shotguns - though most of mine are cheaper fare or modern arms...
I do hot have a 32 gauge anymore - I passed it on to a worthy man recently to fill a hole in his collection - and three rolling block shotguns is probably more than enough (I tend to end up with 3 examples of many long guns - I know I am a wee bit touched in the head)
Thanks for the reply - nag me if I forget.
This is one of the primary driving factors for my participation here - you are an example of why the membership and family here is special.
Mike
The 12ga and 16ga receivers are the same and so are internal parts. The 20ga and 28ga are the same. The .410 is a whole different animal. I have been known to cut down a 12 0r 16 gauge shoe and make it fit a 20/28 gauge receiver. The break levers are tricky and I always contour tops to match top of receiver before bluing. The (shanks?) on break levers are not all the same. One quick note, I was building up a late model receiver the other day with my tons of parts and tapered firing pin would not fit. Last thing in process and there I sat with seven wrong firing pins. It was a late, late, blue belly and required a cut down late firing pin. And this is the tip of the iceberg that would take pages and pages to explain.
I got started on these 37 Winchester years ago for two reasons. 1. Dad loaned me his 12ga 37 and used Grandpa's Stevens sxs 20ga to hunt rabbits so I would not damage it. I hated the recoil on that 12ga, 30" full choke. 2. Very early after four Pre64 Model 70 Winchesters I decided I would need to be a millionare to collect them so I bought Rules signed, numbered and cased book instead.
Please feel free to contact me anytime Mike.
Ray
PS. Mike, I always wanted to write a book on the 37 Winchester and now as MacArthur said "the shadows are getting longer for me." The 37 Winchester more than any other I think was the gun that killed the fox/chicken hawk, put food on the table, and protected a man's home and family. It was a piece of Rural America.0
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