knockdown power
It's a myth. Spread the word. Not the word knockdown power (which is two words), but that it's a myth. Spread the myth. I mean, tell folks it's a myth.
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Misconception. 0 -
is this another 38 vs 357 guestion?????????? 0 -
so, why did the "old timers" left over from the Civil War prefer cap-and-ball revolvers over cartridge, because they said it would knock a man off his horse while the cartridges didn't? 0 -
Pew pew pew vs bang bang bang or pow pow pow...
It's about energy transfer - a slow fat lead ball hits like a freight train - a small smooth jacketed bullet traveling at high velocity may punch a clean hole and keep traveling / retain its energy after impact...
Why do you think they designed small fast jacketed bullets to tumble and spall - why do hollow points or expanding or frangible bullets do so much damage...
Mike0 -
You are the myth. :twisted: 
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mrmike08075 wrote:Pew pew pew vs bang bang bang or pow pow pow...
It's about energy transfer - a slow fat lead ball hits like a freight train - a small smooth jacketed bullet traveling at high velocity may punch a clean hole and keep traveling / retain its energy after impact...
Why do you think they designed small fast jacketed bullets to tumble and spall - why do hollow points or expanding or frangible bullets do so much damage...
Mike
Your math is a bit skewed. If Ke is equal to 1/2 M V^2 (which it is) a 55 grain projectile traveling @ 3000 ft/s develops approx 2x the energy of a 405 grain 'whomper' traveling @ 800 ft/s. And then there's the shock to the central nervous system to consider.
Note: Both are on my 'I don't wan to get hit with that' list.0 -
I like to believe that a slow heavy dumb projectile transfers all of its energy all at once upon impact...
And that many modern small caliber high velocity jacketed projectiles can and will produce a neat small clean hole and continue on with much of its energy not released on impact...
Transfer of kinetic energy.
Math and I have not been friends for some time - so sure it's supposition and conjecture and published lore or opinion more than hard science on my part.
Would you prefer - if you had the choice - to be struck by a civil war cast lead projectile or a .223 SS109 FMJ Ball round...
Statistically I would think that the big slow lead projectile would kill or maim far more often them the modern bullet on the first shot - but I am frequently wrong.
And please correct me if I am espousing nonsense - just remember to use small words and speak slowly - or provide crayon illustrations.
Mike0 -
I believe bullet placement had a direct correlation to ?knockdown power?. 0 -
I ask a former deceased Navy Seal what his carry piece was... .45 Ball. Just makes a big * hole. 0 -
Knockdown power is not a myth. Blow a feller back 10 feet is.
More a mythunderstanding of terms.0 -
The 1911 with the .45 ACP was developed partly as a deterrent to deliver to US service men knock down power to quell certain islanders that would dope up before attacking our troops at the time. John Moses Browning understood smaller pistol callibers had little stopping power against drugged aggressors. His 1911 was well received for many years for multi purposes.
The 45 ACP is still very popular today. Knockdown power is one of its quality s.0 -
Of course only the ill informed think people fly back like they do in the movies. I think it comes down to simple Newtonian physics (if there is such a thing of it being simple). For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the target really did fly back like in the movies, the shooter would look like this guy:
https://www.military.com/video/guns/recoil/classic-recoil-fail/763664551001
Damage really comes down to shot placement and projectile type for any given caliber. However, if all other things are equal and the shot passes cleanly through, you have energy not transferred to the target.
I will also say that "dead is dead". I have taken over 100 deer, with about half of them being shot with a .50 caliber muzzleloader, and the rest with rifles ranging from .243 Win to .300 win mag during their respective seasons (and I finished off another hunters deer with a .22lr). I would say that about 85% of the deer shot with the muzzleloader dropped where they were. Hardly any of the centerfire rifles dropped them in place. On paper, the .300 win mag has about 3 times the energy as the muzzleloader but what my eyes see on impact tells there is more to it.0 -
"knockdown power" is how hard something hits.
kinetic energy is not how hard something hits. it is how well it penetrates a thin, hard barrier.
momentum is not how hard something hits. it is how well it pushes a heavy object.
taken together, they are how hard something hits.
so knockdown power is a combination of those.
a typical .45 has 200 power factor and 350 ft-lb KE. so a long-barrel .40 with 200 power factor and 500+ ft-lb KE hits harder than a .45
neither of which is going to actually knock someone over. there was a video where some guy put wood blocks on a picnic table and shot them with a 40. they slid maybe 10". that was it. pistols really are not powerful. it's just that people are not made out of wood so it's easy to poke holes in them.0 -
To quote chapter 33, page 227 of the 2nd edition Ammo Encyclopedia:
"Knockdown is a non-technical, vernacular term for the phenomenon of an animate target being knocked off its feet, from the kinetic energy of the bullet's impact. However, kinetic energy is not the cause; bullet placement and the transfer of kinetic energy where it will produce the most shock are the major reasons for a bullet's knockdown effectiveness."0 -
kinetic energy won't knock anything over. 0 -
Well I know one thing, Roy Rogers wouldn't lie or pretend. And I've saw him shoot a guy and blow him plumb out of the window of a house on more than one occasion. I've even seen him shoot a guy in a saloon that blew him clean over the bar. So now we're supposed to believe that knockdown power is a myth? I think not! 0 -
When I was young I hit a barn driving a slow moving tractor.......the barn was knocked @ 10/12 ft. backwards and collapsed :oops:. I don't think a speedy motorcycle or go-cart would've had the same affect. That settled matters in my mine about weight, mass and slow moving objects and the theory of knockdown power 0 -
Myth??!! I've seen movies where people are thrown backwards ten feet from recoil can't be a myth LOL 0 -
Smitty500mag wrote:Well I know one thing, Roy Rogers wouldn't lie or pretend. And I've saw him shoot a guy and blow him plumb out of the window of a house on more than one occasion. I've even seen him shoot a guy in a saloon that blew him clean over the bar. So now we're supposed to believe that knockdown power is a myth? I think not!
Sure, sure, don't forget his Colt SAAs also held 18 rounds each. He might not lie or pretend, but he apparently couldn't count worth spit.0 -
Hey I still believe in the Western movie poster were the hero is astride his trusty steed - Colt SAA revolvers in each hand blazing away...
Clearly showing the empty cases ejecting from the revolvers.
And per Hollywood ducking behind a dumpster will provide perfect protection from assault weapons fire...
Hand grenades produce a more pronounced prodigious burst of flame that a fuel air mine or napalm canister...
Mike0
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