this bullet puller doesn't work
I want to find out if ammo is flash suppressed or not. I can't tell in the daytime, I don't know of or don't want to pay for a shooting range in the dark, and I can't just lean out the window and bust one off to find out. so I decided I have to pull the bullet and figure out a way to burn the gunpowder to determine if it is flash suppressed or not.
right. so I need a bullet puller.
but I don't want to spend 18 bucks.
so I drilled a hole in a 3 foot long 1x2, stuck in a bullet and wrapped a coat hanger around the rim.
the idea was to whack it against a board. it should hit with much more force than a bullet puller.
I whacked, and whacked and whacked, and hit it so hard I thought the board was going to break. the bullet did NOT want to come out! I gave up and had to use a pair of nippers to pull it out. and that wasn't easy either.
questions:
HOW on EARTH is a plastic bullet puller supposed to work when this didn't?
why are people afraid of bullet setback when it took a pair of nippers to pull out a bullet and damn near chopped it in half doing it, because it was so hard to get it out?
this ammo was not flash suppressed, and it burnt yellow. it's difficult to do this so I haven't pulled a known flash suppressed ammo yet. what do you think will be different to tell it's flash suppressed? not burn yellow? burn orange? no color? or what. if anybody has some could you tell me what it does when you burn it.
right. so I need a bullet puller.
but I don't want to spend 18 bucks.
so I drilled a hole in a 3 foot long 1x2, stuck in a bullet and wrapped a coat hanger around the rim.
the idea was to whack it against a board. it should hit with much more force than a bullet puller.
I whacked, and whacked and whacked, and hit it so hard I thought the board was going to break. the bullet did NOT want to come out! I gave up and had to use a pair of nippers to pull it out. and that wasn't easy either.
questions:
HOW on EARTH is a plastic bullet puller supposed to work when this didn't?
why are people afraid of bullet setback when it took a pair of nippers to pull out a bullet and damn near chopped it in half doing it, because it was so hard to get it out?
this ammo was not flash suppressed, and it burnt yellow. it's difficult to do this so I haven't pulled a known flash suppressed ammo yet. what do you think will be different to tell it's flash suppressed? not burn yellow? burn orange? no color? or what. if anybody has some could you tell me what it does when you burn it.
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well first off, the 'plastic' puller has some 'spring back' that your puller doesn't
and second, burning powder with no pressure doesn't tell you anything about how it will operate in a firearm0 -
used one for years ,,inertia 0 -
I've used one of those bullet pullers for years and it works great. I don't use the collets that came with it that have the rubber band around them. I just use the shell holder from my press to hold the cartridge in the bullet puller and screw the cap down on it. I stick a piece of tape over the hole in the cap to keep any powder from flying out. 0 -
Hint. Try his before you try the puller. Seat the bullet just a tad deeper with you press.
I have used the plastic one, you have to whack the thing pretty hard to.0 -
I don't have a press. or I would use one of those collet bullet pullers.
read somewhere that Speer uses an adhesive (in addition to crimping) to prevent setback. maybe this mfr did too. (Fiocchi) but I don't see anything in the case mouth.
I'm going to have to just buy a bullet puller. won't do any good though if burning the powder doesn't tell me anything.0 -
I have over the years tried and still have examples of collet and inertia pullers. Both are slow and collet can damage bullets.
Graduated to a "Grip and Pull" and haven't looked back0 -
buschmaster,
I understand your frustration when trying to accomplish what we think is a simple task and we end up chasing our tails.
Your wood bullet puller does not transmit the energy to the case/bullet combination like the plastic bullet puller does. While the plastic one works in most situations, it has on occasion failed me as well. Now I use the 'Grip and Pull' most of the time.
Part of the drawback is inherent to pistol bullet seating and crimping. Many manufacturers never give a thought to the consumer trying to pull one of their bullets. It's just not in their thinking process because they can't imagine a situation under which we would need to do this. So they use a fairly stout crimp which aids in combustion and more complete powder burning in short barrels. But that crimp is well...stout!
Burning powder in the open air will not provide any information regarding muzzle flash or the use of a flash suppressant. The powder must be under pressure in the case held back by the bullet. Aren't you in Wisconsin? Can't you shoot in the National Forests? If you can, get a refrigerator box to take with you out to the woods. Any square or tube type container will work. Cut a hole in the side where a buddy or someone can use their phone to shoot video of you shooting through the box. You can use black construction paper on the opposite side of the box so the flash is more prominent. Cover the open end opposite the muzzle with another piece of cardboard. Start the video and fire away. Be sure to have a backstop...
Best.0 -
couldn't you just e-mail the manufacturer with the lot number of ammo and ask them?? 0 -
mac10 wrote:used one for years ,,inertia
Same here. I bought a Hornady several years ago and use it quite often. Hornady has replaced it free once due to breakage and they sent me a supply of the collets free. (lifetime warranty) I use a sponge ear plug in mine so as the bullet tip does not get damaged when it come out by inertia.
I think RCBS also has a lifetime warranty on theirs.
I also have the RCBS collet type pullers which requires a different collet for the different calibers and they will distort the bullets when clamped tight. I tested some distorted 223 bullets in a very accurate 223 rifle and they grouped the same as regular bullets, but I cannot force myself to reload mangled distorted bullets and constantly fire them in a good rifle.
Also sometimes when removing the tough bullets even with the inertial puller I use the collet type or similar and push the bullet into the case some so as to break the crimp first or to loosen the bullet in the case.
I've seen some bullets in some cases that even the collet type took several stabs to get a mangled bullet release and a grip and pull would not get er dun. Suspect that the bullets were sealed like some primers and then the bullets crimped.
Some old military 30:06 brass are tough to pull the bullets.
If you live in Chicago, New York or St Louis just squeeze off a round after dark and no one will pay any attention the gun shots in these areas. or drive to these area to test)0 -
buschmaster, you might check out DoubleTapAmmo.com They were one of the original loaders to load the 10mm what it was designed to back when the .40 S&W loads were common. Anyway, most of his ammo, and I believe all of his pistol ammo is advertised as low flash. Even though I am set up and load 10mm by the bucket load now, I still shoot his ammo in my CCW. 0 -
I once saw John Wayne pull a bullet with his teeth...
....then poured the powder in a bullet wound and lit it. There was an impressive flash.
You just gotta do some night shooting.0 -
bustedknee wrote:You just gotta do some night shooting.
The night before muzzleloader season I always first wipe dry with patches, then I swirl some powder down the barrel and fire a cap a few times to ensure the oil is dried and flash hole is clear on the bolster. It makes for an interesting flash being shot with no bullet to hold it in place as it builds pressure. It'll shoot 10+ feet out of the barrel still in flames. At night the same gun doesn't make much of a flash when loaded normally to use. It might go a foot, if that.0 -
Contrary to popular belief, muzzle flash has nothing to do with "the powder still burning" anyway. 0 -
I wonder what this stuff is burning coming out of this S&W 500 Mag? 0 -
That, and all other muzzle flash, is caused by the flammable gasses still remaining after the powder burns.
Gunpowder is fuel-rich. It does not produce enough oxygen to completely consume all the flammable gasses it also produces. All the combustion that can happen is complete long before the bullet exits the muzzle. In many handgun cartridges, combustion ceases before the bullet leaves the case! But there are still considerable amounts of flammable gas at incandescent temperatures remaining. When they leave the muzzle and mix with oxygen in the air, they self ignite.
And that is muzzle flash.0 -
.
Mike0 -
spent the 18 bucks
pulled the bullet
online reviews say to tap it on cement, because wood absorbs the impact.
instructions from the mfr say to not tap it on cement, because it might break.
so I hit it on wood. tapping didn't do anything. hit it pretty hard about 30 times before the bullet came out.
that one (Fiocchi) is not flash suppressed. did another known to be flash suppressed (Browning BPT) so now I have examples of both.
what fuel to use?
Ronsonol lighter fluid doesn't burn well on a hard flat surface. and burns yellow. can't have that.
Isopropyl Alcohol burns well, but it's also yellow. can't have that.
Denatured Alcohol burns well, and it's a clean blue flame. exactly what I need.
put a pinch in the middle of a pop can. squirt a little alcohol on it. the gunpowder doesn't start burning until the alcohol burns off first.
then it ignites the gunpowder, which burns only twice as much as the alcohol. not even like firecracker powder. pretty safe in a small amount.
the Fiocchi burned a bright yellow.
and the Browning burned... a bright yellow. in fact it had sparks that the other didn't.
now what.
the Fiocchi smelled like black pepper, more or less. the Browning definitely smelled funky. if that was the flash suppressant, they definitely added some junk to it. has to be a way to test for it.
I read that gunpowders are flash-suppressed by adding alkalai salts. any salt is going to dissolve in water, and anything alkaline is going to make it a basic pH. (more than 7) so I put the rest of the gunpowder in an old Jack Daniels 100 mL, added a little water, and tested it with pH strips from Walgreen's.
they were both pH of 7. neutral. so much for that idea.
but, the Fiocchi, with no flash suppressant, was clear.
the Browning, with flash suppressant additives, was green as cologne.
that might be it. I have to test more ammo's to see if this tells me which ones are flash suppressed.0 -
chiefr wrote:I have over the years tried and still have examples of collet and inertia pullers. Both are slow and collet can damage bullets.
Graduated to a "Grip and Pull" and haven't looked back
I don't have a reloading press to use that onnononsense wrote:Aren't you in Wisconsin? Can't you shoot in the National Forests?
no, I'm not in Wisconsin. I don't know of any public lands I can pull up after dark and start shooting. except North Saint Louis and I don't want to go there.hillbille wrote:couldn't you just e-mail the manufacturer with the lot number of ammo and ask them??
they don't knowbambihunter wrote:buschmaster, you might check out DoubleTapAmmo.com They were one of the original loaders to load the 10mm what it was designed to back when the .40 S&W loads were common. Anyway, most of his ammo, and I believe all of his pistol ammo is advertised as low flash. Even though I am set up and load 10mm by the bucket load now, I still shoot his ammo in my CCW.
there are many others but they don't say so. I would rather find out which ones so I have a much wider selection.bambihunter wrote:The night before muzzleloader season I always first wipe dry with patches, then I swirl some powder down the barrel and fire a cap a few times to ensure the oil is dried and flash hole is clear on the bolster. It makes for an interesting flash being shot with no bullet to hold it in place as it builds pressure. It'll shoot 10+ feet out of the barrel still in flames. At night the same gun doesn't make much of a flash when loaded normally to use. It might go a foot, if that.
maybe I could reload with a wax plug and shoot it off somewhere. well, other guys say it needs pressure to do its stuff. so maybe that would be unreliable.Smitty500mag wrote:I wonder what this stuff is burning coming out of this S&W 500 Mag?
anything that was in it you can bet on thatRocky Raab wrote:That, and all other muzzle flash, is caused by the flammable gasses still remaining after the powder burns.
Gunpowder is fuel-rich. It does not produce enough oxygen to completely consume all the flammable gasses it also produces. All the combustion that can happen is complete long before the bullet exits the muzzle. In many handgun cartridges, combustion ceases before the bullet leaves the case! But there are still considerable amounts of flammable gas at incandescent temperatures remaining. When they leave the muzzle and mix with oxygen in the air, they self ignite.
And that is muzzle flash.
so, it produces excess flammble gases, but they are all combusted before the bullet leaves the cartridge, but when bullet leaves the barrel there are flammable gases that burn in the air, which aren't the cause of muzzle flash, it's the flammable gases instead... what?mrmike08075 wrote:<video>
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Mike
I don't have a reloading press0 -
buschmaster, no, I'm not in Wisconsin. I don't know of any public lands I can pull up after dark and start shooting. except North Saint Louis and I don't want to go there.
My apologies. It was early and I obviously mistook you for another member. Sorry. :oops:0 -
I think you misunderstand the whole thing.
First, your open-air experiments prove exactly nothing. What did you expect? Invisible flame?
Second, let me try again with the flash explanation. Gunpowder produces more fuel than it can burn. The excess fuel is in the form of flammable gasses. When it is ignited in a cartridge, everything that can burn does so in an extremely short time, leaving the excess flammable gasses unburned but extremely hot. After the bullet leaves the muzzle, those gasses mix with atmospheric oxygen and (because they are still incandescent) self-ignite. That's is muzzle flash.
Extreme high-speed photography shows that process. There is a column of high velocity glowing hot gas for a short distance, and then a much brighter expanding cloud of white-hot swirling gas - muzzle flash. Note that the flash does not begin until well after it exits the muzzle - it does not come out of the muzzle white hot. It becomes that way after mixing with air. Observe...0 -
In contrast, powders with a flash suppressant chemically alter the composition of the gasses so they do not ignite or ignite poorly: 0 -
A fuller description and explanation here:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-090.php0 -
buschmaster wrote:bambihunter wrote:buschmaster, you might check out DoubleTapAmmo.com They were one of the original loaders to load the 10mm what it was designed to back when the .40 S&W loads were common. Anyway, most of his ammo, and I believe all of his pistol ammo is advertised as low flash. Even though I am set up and load 10mm by the bucket load now, I still shoot his ammo in my CCW.
there are many others but they don't say so. I would rather find out which ones so I have a much wider selection.
Hmm, I just went to his site again and it doesn't say that specifically anymore. All of his pistol loads used to say low flash, clean burning powder, safe to be fired through suppressors, etc. I don't see that language on any of the calibers I looked at. Maybe he has changed his loads. I used to be on a site (maybe still am, but can't remember what it is) that did "pull downs" of popular loads. They inspected and tried to ID the powder, weighed the powder charge, the bullet, noted the casing, and even the primer if it was identifiable. Back when I was on there a lot, most of his 10mm loads were listed as 800x for heavier loads and Blue Dot for lighter ones. I have worked up loads up to max in a few of mine that still don't quite reach his velocities so I still think he blends powder. Anyway, I am getting off track. Since it is no longer specifically listed, maybe they aren't anymore. I have a new batch being delivered today so I'll know before too long. I live in the country so I can step outside and shoot after dark.0 -
Few if any commercial ammunition companies use canister powder. They use bulk lots that are blended to meet their specifications, or that happen to meet their needs without special formulation. But you can't buy those powders because the ammo company buys an entire production run of thousands of pounds of powder. They load ammo until that powder is gone and then they search for another production run of powder that's as close as possible.
But they don't buy Blue Dot, or 800X or anything else that a consumer could "identify" or duplicate.0 -
Rocky, I am sure that is correct for large manufacturers using fully automated equipment, but smaller, more specialized "boutique" vendors very possibly do. I know DT ammo for instance is not fully mechanized. Every round loaded is touched by hand. But, I think we have digressed from the OP's question. 0 -
I'm sure you're correct, too. I should have written "major ammunition makers".
We're still in range of the OP, who started all this to learn about low flash powders.0 -
Rocky Raab wrote:All the combustion that can happen is complete long before the bullet exits the muzzle. In many handgun cartridges, combustion ceases before the bullet leaves the case!
so what is left to combust with the air outside???Rocky Raab wrote:But there are still considerable amounts of flammable gas at incandescent temperatures remaining.
OH that. it's not combusting, it's just excess gas. okay.0 -
Rocky Raab wrote:First, your open-air experiments prove exactly nothing. What did you expect? Invisible flame?
no, I wanted to see if they burn with a different color. yellow, white, orange, depending on flash suppressed or not. that's a reasonable guess. it was shown that in the open air they won't act as they do under high pressure. (coming out of a barrel anyway)0
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