10mm+p hardcast for brown bears?
After remoaks alerted me to the 460 Rowland conversion for my Glock 30, I got into a debate about the viability of the 10mm +p hardcast as an option that would obviate the need and usefulness of the 460 Rowland as brown bear protection with a buddy of mine.
I've never heard of any Alaskan guides who carry 10mm+p hardcast as a brown bear pill (his claim), but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some. It's a great penetrator.
All I've ever heard is 44mag min. for brown bears and preferably more, however. My buddy's claim is that there is virtually no distinction in terminal ballistics of the two rounds.
I've read a bunch published by Randy Garrett (of Garrett cartridges) and what his research has shown is that even small changes in meplat diameter make a big difference in wound channel and also penetration (bigger is better) where hardcast bullets are concerned.
The 460 Rowland travels faster and has more muzzle energy than the 10mm+p AND has a larger meplat diameter. So it would seem to me the 10mm option would be inferior.
What say you all?
I've never heard of any Alaskan guides who carry 10mm+p hardcast as a brown bear pill (his claim), but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some. It's a great penetrator.
All I've ever heard is 44mag min. for brown bears and preferably more, however. My buddy's claim is that there is virtually no distinction in terminal ballistics of the two rounds.
I've read a bunch published by Randy Garrett (of Garrett cartridges) and what his research has shown is that even small changes in meplat diameter make a big difference in wound channel and also penetration (bigger is better) where hardcast bullets are concerned.
The 460 Rowland travels faster and has more muzzle energy than the 10mm+p AND has a larger meplat diameter. So it would seem to me the 10mm option would be inferior.
What say you all?
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460 Rowland is hotter than 10mm +P no doubt.
I think there is data that says any handgun is a preferable option to no gun.
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5rES29XYi
This goes back to 1890?s
https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jwmg.3420 -
Brown Bears?
22 Short and a "friend"
Brown Bear Charges, shoot "friend" in knee and run.
Better chance of survival and there are WAY less questions asked.0 -
gearheaddad wrote:Brown Bears?
22 Short and a "friend"
Brown Bear Charges, shoot "friend" in knee and run.
Better chance of survival and there are WAY less questions asked.
I don't keep company with the type of "friend" that I would shoot. So that's a non starter.0 -
Lead through a Glock, especially a fast moving lead? Not a good combo in Glock. Did Glock change barrels to shoot lead?
Now me I'm not willing to "test" a new bullet/gun for a field test on a big ass and most likely pissed off bear that's being shot. I'm imagining GIs in Vietnam with M16 (been reading and listening to pissed off GIs of their field trials with the M16).
It is a cheaper way than buying a new whole gun but it is cheaper than spending some time in a hospital. If you make it there.
Now me I'd take a 10mm in the bush but mine will be a S&W 1076 since I can hit what I need to and 9+1 and mag swap for 9 more is quicker than reloading a wheel gun. Unless there's moon-clips involved. I'd also pack "Norma" load and not some "sub-sonics".
I believe shot placement has something to do with bear protection. Come to think of it I'd pack my Marling 1895GS and take along a slow running gun caddy who smells of donuts.0 -
"friend"Mr. Perfect wrote:gearheaddad wrote:Brown Bears?
22 Short and a "friend"
Brown Bear Charges, shoot "friend" in knee and run.
Better chance of survival and there are WAY less questions asked.
I don't keep company with the type of "friend" that I would shoot. So that's a non starter.
Not a friend.....a "friend"! A stand in! a double! a stooge!
Shoot a bear, go to Prison, shoot a human, you have a better chance to walk!0 -
Yes. I get that. What I am saying is I don't keep company with that type of "friend".gearheaddad wrote:
"friend"Mr. Perfect wrote:gearheaddad wrote:Brown Bears?
22 Short and a "friend"
Brown Bear Charges, shoot "friend" in knee and run.
Better chance of survival and there are WAY less questions asked.
I don't keep company with the type of "friend" that I would shoot. So that's a non starter.
Not a friend.....a "friend"! A stand in! a double! a stooge!
Shoot a bear, go to Prison, shoot a human, you have a better chance to walk!0 -
Yosh, it's my understanding that hardcast lead won't foul like soft lead does. And the 460 Rowland bbl for the Glock conversion doesn't have Glock rifling in any case.yoshmyster wrote:Lead through a Glock, especially a fast moving lead? Not a good combo in Glock. Did Glock change barrels to shoot lead?
Now me I'm not willing to "test" a new bullet/gun for a field test on a big ass and most likely pissed off bear that's being shot. I'm imagining GIs in Vietnam with M16 (been reading and listening to pissed off GIs of their field trials with the M16).
It is a cheaper way than buying a new whole gun but it is cheaper than spending some time in a hospital. If you make it there.
Now me I'd take a 10mm in the bush but mine will be a S&W 1076 since I can hit what I need to and 9+1 and mag swap for 9 more is quicker than reloading a wheel gun. Unless there's moon-clips involved. I'd also pack "Norma" load and not some "sub-sonics".
I believe shot placement has something to do with bear protection. Come to think of it I'd pack my Marling 1895GS and take along a slow running gun caddy who smells of donuts.0 -
I am a huge 10mm fan/collector. My various pistols have been borrowed by a few of my friends that didn't trust their CCW caliber as backup. All I'll say is they have stopped several charging wild pigs over the years. A few were absolutely huge. I usually loaned out my G20 since it wasn't an expensive gun plus had good capacity for the weight. The last time I loaned it to my friend, he had shot one over 500 pounds (OK record is ~750 pounds). He finally bought himself a G40 after that. This was a head shot after his deer rifle heart/lung did not seem to bother it. 200 grain 10mm JHP loaded hot with Blue Dot or 800x (can't remember which) on a head shot and it crashed to the ground. I haven't really shot much hardcast but I would think you'd get better penetration with it. Or, I think you can still buy .400 solids.
Now, I realize boars are not bears, but size wise they are somewhat similar. Though I love the 10mm, when it comes to dangerous game, bigger is better. But, remember you have to carry that 'bigger' gun all day, through the brush, yet still have it accessible at a moments notice. Years ago, I used to hunt with a 44 mag Ruger carbine and thought it'd be cool to have a side-arm of the same caliber. That lasted about 3 days before going back to 10mm. It was just too heavy to carry on the hip.0 -
As far as lead bullets, out of a Glock. Lone Wolf has quite a number of barrels, in various calibers with cut rifling. I have bought around 3 so far. To shoot any lead bullet loads. Without any problems, with the Glock rifling.
Also about shooting, a Alaskan Brown Bear with a 10 MM pistol. There is a bunch of U Tube videos concerning this. Apparently a bunch of the folks up there. Have gone to the Glock 20, because its greater magazine capacity. Over the big bore, 5 and 6 shot revolvers. Seems they figure, that a 200 or 220 solid at 1100 to 1200 fps. Will do the job, if they ever have to tangle with a big Brownie. That said, personally I would rather have a shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs. But that's just me, I never, have ever been in Alaska.0 -
If I was in brown bear country, or 2-legged thug country, no matter what the load, it would not be launched by any plastic mechanism. 0 -
Jerry's Nick search out of an article about their safety written by the Department of Natural Resources in Alaska. They say even a 44 Mass might be inadequate for especially the hymns about give experienced person. I will also include a link to the article that I pulled this out of at the bottom
"The department recommends a .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs if a firearm is to be used for protection. It reports the commonly used .44-Magnum handgun might be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."
Both calibers will kill them dead. The 460 Rowland will Kill them Dead faster in the same location. Do you really want to chance having a brown bear mad and not dropping as quick as he's charging you?
For Years everybody has agreed that the 44 caliber or a caliber of the same ballistics is the minimum you should carry. In brown bear country That's not to say a 22 long rifle won't kill them.... eventually. But you really don't want a mad bear after you... or have to chase after a pissed-off wounded brown bear in the brush because you didn't kill him. I mean you do want to be Humane, and if if you shoot one you want to make sure that you do kill it so it doesn't suffer, or chase after somebody else because he's pissed off and you said oh well, I'll just let it die on its own
So Both will work, and so would a 22 long rifle placed in the right spot. I just prefer having something that penetrates better and creates a bigger Channel wound, which gives you a better chance at stopping them...
So Any any gun is better than nothing. 44 magnum would be the minimum for preferable Caliber , whereas the .454 casull would be better and a 500 Smith & Wesson would even be better.
And I will tell you that I had a cousin that used to be a guide in Alaska until he passed away, and I went out there to go hunting with him he wants and told him that I would bring my 357 Magnum in case we ran into any brown bears (which has the equivalent ballistics of a 10 mm). He said don't bother, it's not big enough, and he also said there's nothing more than he hates then to chase into the brush after a wounded brown... he says it could turn out pretty bad. And because he was a hunting guide all his life in Alaska, I would tend to believe what he was telling me.
But hey, if a 10 millimeter is all you have, carry it. It's better than rocks and sticks
Here's the link to the article that I pulled that information out of that the Alaskan Department of Natural Resources has on their safety
http://bentpropinn.com/bear-safety0 -
This is a statement by Jake Jefferson of Black river hunting c&p from Alaska outdoor forums.
He makes similar statements in other posts when the question came up.
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yep i carry one. my go to. easy to shoot, can use it with one hand with my scalp pulled over my eyes, recoil is managable with one hand, accurate, loud and slim so it carries nice, 9 rounds. i carry it fishing and on sheep or goat hunts when i dont' want to carry a full rifle around. shot a grizz, sheep, mt goat and fox with it so far. it'll work...but like any other bear deterant situation, i'm not there to kill it, i'm there to keep it from hurting me or my client thats my priority. not to drop the bear with one stone cold shot form a monster magnum...are there bigger guns for that..sure. my 10mm is my keep me alive and safe gun...10' brownie rolling down on me, i'll be standing there with it....
Www.blackriverhunting.com
Master guide 212
Fwiw
This one of the guys who got me thinking about a slam action versus my normal high powered wheel gun
Mule0 -
I read somewhere that Canadian Mounties carried 10mm for areas where they may run into a polar bear. Not sure how often they actually may have to use it, but they seem to think it is sufficient. I really don't want to find out. I love the S&W 500. I recently bought some land in the mountains of Virginia which has a heavy black bear population and got the S&W 500 to carry in a chest rig while hunting there. Big, heavy gun with a crazy muzzle blast, but also very powerful. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot anything with it in complete confidence. T-Rex, white walkers, mummies- you name it and the S&W 500 can take it down. 
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If you think a 357 mag is enough gun then the 10mm is plenty of gun for you from buffalo bore and their hard cast loads
HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
.460 Rowland? Ammo - 255 gr. HC-FN (1300fps / M.E.957 ft.lbs.)0 -
savage170 wrote:If you think a 357 mag is enough gun then the 10mm is plenty of gun for you from buffalo bore and their hard cast loads
HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
.460 Rowland? Ammo - 255 gr. HC-FN (1300fps / M.E.957 ft.lbs.)
I carry that Underwood .357 rd. for hogs.0 -
I hunt in black bear country and carry a .480 Ruger as back up, using Punch bullets. 0 -
a 10mm+P might be considered a low-end .41 Magnum. does not even begin to approach .44 Magnum no way no how.Mr. Perfect wrote:I've never heard of any Alaskan guides who carry 10mm+p hardcast as a brown bear pill (his claim), but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some. It's a great penetrator.
All I've ever heard is 44mag min. for brown bears and preferably more, however. My buddy's claim is that there is virtually no distinction in terminal ballistics of the two rounds.
your friend does not know what he's talking about.0 -
I don't know if this will help make up your mind but the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol in Greenland is a Danish Navy/Marine unit that patrols and does recon in Greenland. I was fortunate to do some training with them and they are very professional and know their stuff.
They carry 1917 Enfield 30-06 rifles and Glock 20 pistols. They use these for defense against Polar Bears and Musk Ox along with other dangerous 2 and 4 legged animals.
I have shot cast bullets out of 9mm and 45acp Cal glocks with no bad effects. That said I didn't shoot hundreds of rounds at one time but I did shoot a fair amount. For some reason I have found that a Glock in 45 acp is one of the most accurate 45 acp guns I have ever shot.
I think for a Bear defense handgun a Glock or any 10mm would be fine. The 460 rowland is a nice conversion but it will only operate with lighter bullets and never really can compete with the 44 mag when handloaded.
I think when confronting a bear with a handgun, follow up shot are going to be needed and a G20 would be much faster that a heavy loaded 44 or 454. The 10mm will penetrate deep, as deep as a 44mag and if you practice with it enough I would think you can get to be a very accurate shot with one. Those are the keys to killing anything penetration and bullet placement.0 -
Appreciate the input guys. Thanks. 0 -
Stopping bear attacks is the same as stopping 2 legged attackers.
I taught a practical pistol course for many years.
The rule I taught about stopping power was this:
The best gun to have during any attack is ANY gun you have in your hand when it happens.
A woman that can put 4 or 5 .22lr bullets into her attacker is better off than a woman that can only hit it once with a .357 mag.
It's simple math, one high power hit in a non-critical area will not stop an attacker.
Multiple hits will. This is why a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck works so well. A single 00
buckshot is about the same as a .380 bullet. Nine of them at once stops anything.
I would not feel under gunned with a hot 10mm pistol load. Especially if you can throw 2 or 3 or 4 follow up shots into the attacker.0 -
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Yes. I get that. What I am saying is I don't keep company with that type of "friend".gearheaddad wrote:
"friend"Mr. Perfect wrote:
I don't keep company with the type of "friend" that I would shoot. So that's a non starter.
Not a friend.....a "friend"! A stand in! a double! a stooge!
Shoot a bear, go to Prison, shoot a human, you have a better chance to walk!
Ever watch Foghorn Leghorn?
I say boy! Hey Boy! Over here Boy!
That was a joke, son, a joke! Get it?
Good luck in Bear country with whatever you decide.
No disrespect meant or implied.
Sometimes any joke, even a bad joke is just funny to me.........0
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