Crazy lady bought the gun in Colorado?
Without me googling it, I thought you couldn't even purchase a long gun in a state not your own. I remember something once about if the state was touching your state or something. So how did this girl buy a shotgun in Colorado?
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You can buy a long gun (thru a dealer) in a state you're not a resident of. Doesn't have to be border state. The gun has to be legal in your home state no you have to follow the home state rules.
No private long gun sales to non same state.
Pistols only to same state.0 -
It might be correct, but it ain?t right. 0 -
GreatGuns wrote:WearyTraveler wrote:You can buy a long gun (thru a dealer) in a state you're not a resident of. Doesn't have to be border state. The gun has to be legal in your home state no you have to follow the home state rules.
No private long gun sales to non same state.
Pistols only to same state.
I thought I had that wrong, thanks for clarifying. So you can buy it, but it must go through your dealer in your home state, so you don't take possession from the seller, does that sound correct? :?
Jim
Nope - as a WV ffl I can sell a long gun to a Georgia resident. It?d have to be legal in Georgia and he?d have to be legal to own it
He?d be able to walk out the door with it as soon as paperwork and nics is complete.
As a private sale, I could not sell to him.0 -
Arizona is the same.GreatGuns wrote:I really like our gun laws in Montana, in that we can do a face-to-face with zero paperwork involved. Reminds me of how things use to be, before the gubment got involved with every step of every man's life.
Jim0 -
Same with Nevada, for now! :evil: 0 -
As a resident of New Jersey I legally bought firearms in both Pennsylvania and Delaware - each case having the dealer do a NICS check phone call...
Never had a single delay or hiccup.
Bought several from Ed and Vicky Kennedy at PA gunshows right on the floor in the open with no fear or concern.
Mike0 -
Here are the facts spelled out. Florida does not allow a resident of their state to purchase a long gun IF under 21 years of age or from out of state with the exception of Georgia and Alabama.
Did the Colorado Firearms Dealer Violate Federal Law When Sol Pais Purchased a Shotgun?
BY LUIS VALDES |APR 18, 2019
This combination of undated photos released by the Jefferson County, Colo., Sheriff?s Office on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 shows Sol Pais. On Tuesday authorities said they are looking pais, suspected of making threats on Columbine High School, just days before the 20th anniversary of a mass shooting that killed 13 people. (Jefferson County Sheriff?s Office via AP)
As we mentioned in our previous article, 18-year-old Sol Pais traveled to Colorado from Florida on Monday. The woman was reportedly obsessed with the Columbine massacre. She had made threats ahead of the shooting?s 20th anniversary this Saturday. She purchased a shotgun and ammunition when she arrived in Colorado.
Following an extensive manhunt by local and federal law enforcement Pais committed suicide.
The question is, did the FFL that sold her the shotgun, Colorado Gun Broker, violate Federal Law?
18 USC Ch. 44: FIREARMS ?922. Unlawful acts
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver?
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee?s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee?s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
Under federal law, it?s legal to sell a gun to an out-of-state resident so long as the purchase would be legal in their home state. So an 18-year-old from Missouri purchasing a long gun from a Colorado FFL is perfectly legal. But Florida law is different now.
Remember that after Parkland, part of the gun control package pushed through the GOP-lead legislature and signed into law by Rick Scott outlawed the purchase of long guns by anyone under the age of 21.
FL Statute ?790.065 Sale and delivery of firearms.
(13) A person younger than 21 years of age may not purchase a firearm. The sale or transfer of a firearm to a person younger than 21 years of age may not be made or facilitated by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer. A person who violates this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. The prohibitions of this subsection do not apply to the purchase of a rifle or shotgun by a law enforcement officer or correctional officer, as those terms are defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or (9), or a servicemember as defined in s. 250.01.
As an 18-year-old, Sol Pais could not legally purchase a long gun in Florida. So under US Code ?922, in conjunction with FL Statute ?790.065, it appears that the FFL violated federal law.
I know this because until 2010, Florida had a law in place that barred Floridians from purchasing long guns in states other than Georgia and Alabama.
FL Statute ?790.28 Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states.
A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contiguous to this state if he or she conforms to applicable laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.
This law was enforced on a corporate level by a number of national retailers like Walmart and Bass Pro Shops. I experienced this when I?d travel to Oklahoma to hunt. I remember seeing signs in Walmart?s firearms department listing the states whose residents were prohibited from purchasing guns. Florida was on that list.
In 2011, the law was repealed. Floridians could buy long guns in any other state and Florida was removed from those signs.
In my conversations with BATFE at the time, they explained that if any dealer outside of Georgia or Alabama sold to a Floridian at the time, they?d be in violation of federal law.
The same now applies goes to any other state law under Florida?s age restriction.
Expect this to be made an issue due in the current political environment. Traditionally, BATFE doesn?t crack down on these situations, but since this was such a high profile case and resulted in a suicide by an 18-year-old, this will be brought up.
Under federal law, culpable negligence isn?t a defense. It?s incumbent on Federal Firearms License holders to make sure they?re up-to-date on the laws of all of the other 49 states.
Update by Author:
It is not the responsibility of FBI?s National Instant Criminal Background Check System to see if any applicable laws are being violated. NICS simply checks the National Crime Information Center to see if the buyer is not prohibited from possessing a firearm (have they been judge mentally deficient, is the person a convicted felon, or convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence, received a dishonorable discharge, etc. . .)
NICS does not check anything else. Nor does the State of Colorado?s Bureau of Investigations Firearms InstaCheck or even Florida?s Department of Law Enforcement Firearm Purchase Program check to determine if applicable laws have been violated.
The determination to know if applicable laws are being violated rests on the dealer. Additionally, if the BATFE decide to censure (fine) and not press criminal charges against the dealer for the failure to abide by US Code ?922, then the dealer is open to civil litigation because they have been stripped of coverage provided by the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. Since they did not legally speaking, commit lawful commerce in the sale of the firearm since they violated ?922 by not abiding by ?790.065.
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The selling dealer in Colorado is in deep do do by violating the law.0 -
mogley98 wrote:Without me googling it, I thought you couldn't even purchase a long gun in a state not your own. I remember something once about if the state was touching your state or something. So how did this girl buy a shotgun in Colorado?
Depends on what state the lady in question is from, I'm not sure what story you are referring to but what state was she from?0 -
shootuadeal wrote:mogley98 wrote:Without me googling it, I thought you couldn't even purchase a long gun in a state not your own. I remember something once about if the state was touching your state or something. So how did this girl buy a shotgun in Colorado?
Depends on what state the lady in question is from, I'm not sure what story you are referring to but what state was she from?
From the post just before yours: "As we mentioned in our previous article, 18-year-old Sol Pais traveled to Colorado from Florida on Monday. The woman was reportedly obsessed with the Columbine massacre. She had made threats ahead of the shooting?s 20th anniversary this Saturday. She purchased a shotgun and ammunition when she arrived in Colorado."
She was from Florida and traveled to Colorado, bought a shotgun and offed herself.0 -
Would also mention that CA state law does not permit a CA resident to buy in any other state. 0 -
Here is a longer explanation I wrote up trying to clarify it for everyone, I have devoted a lot of time working on wading through the intricacies of interstate gun sales along with another larger dealer that I am friends with. I posted this on here last year. Have a look at it if you wish:
https://forums.gunbroker.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1359338&p=10222260#p10222260
I will also say that while my info is correct, it does not prevent a seller in one state from not following the laws and selling a gun to someone from out of their state illegally. As the author the post above noted...Calling a gun in to the NICS check will not block an improper sale, it is up to the dealer to make sure the laws are followed correctly, the NICS check only will show the persons background is good enough to pass the check.0 -
Thanks for posting the article by Mr Valdes; that clearly explains the problem, & shows why so many FFL's will not sell to those who are not state residents.
Actually, the problem could have been even worse, since the woman was from FL. FL allows each county/city to have their own more restrictive firearms laws. I KNOW that some counties have restrictive handgun laws (including waiting periods). Even if a dealer has a DVD of State Laws & Published Ordinances - Firearms, that may not be up to date. I think that this incident will have a chilling effect on dealers.
The easiest way out of this mess would be a federal regulation preempting all state laws involving firearms & firearms accessories. That would negate all state & local gun laws, including CCW regulations.
Neal0 -
nmyers wrote:Thanks for posting the article by Mr Valdes; that clearly explains the problem, & shows why so many FFL's will not sell to those who are not state residents.
Actually, the problem could have been even worse, since the woman was from FL. FL allows each county/city to have their own more restrictive firearms laws. I KNOW that some counties have restrictive handgun laws (including waiting periods). Even if a dealer has a DVD of State Laws & Published Ordinances - Firearms, that may not be up to date. I think that this incident will have a chilling effect on dealers.
The easiest way out of this mess would be a federal regulation preempting all state laws involving firearms & firearms accessories. That would negate all state & local gun laws, including CCW regulations.
Neal
So, would you propose to eliminate the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution?0 -
Here in TN, you can buy a Long Gun, from this State, and those touching this State. 0 -
Contiguous is the word that's gets thrown around in the discussion...
No joy for residents of Hawaii and Alaska as far as this issue goes...
But here is a question for you - a dealer from south Carolina attends a Pennsylvania gun show - can he sell to the guy from Ohio...
Does neighboring border states apply to the address on the FFL or the physical location of the point of sale...
Conversely if he is at the show in PA can he make a sale to a resident of north Carolina...
One of the big problems we have had in NJ is with giant stores like cabelas - destination super stores...
Folks buy a gun in PA and bring it back to NJ but it's not Jersey legal or it's banned or prohibited or restricted in NJ - who committed the crime the dealer or the buyer...
Some of the big catalog sellers can't possibly keep up with all the state by state restrictions and changing legislation - they must be shipping what is essentially contraband or smuggling from a narrow perspective.
Some stopped shipping to PO boxes or rent a mail box places because somebody from say NJ could have stuff shipped to his non street address / non residential / non domicile destination and pick up the package and take it back to NJ
Curio and relic and antique have created issues because the terms can cause loopholes.
A felon can't own a gun but if it was patented prior to 1898 is it still a firearm legally???
What happened was folk were going to gunshots in PA and buying a black powder cap and ball percussion revolver - no NICS check or federal paperwork - bringing them back to NJ and than buying a centerpiece conversion cylinder set up...
Yes they committed crimes but it was pretty easy to get away with the deed.
It can be a complicated mess.
Mike0
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