38 spl ammo for defense non +P
I have an older M38 S&W and want to carry it some. Its an older gun so no +P stuff. I usually just carry 148gr Semi Wadcutters in it but I thought maybe a good HP defensive bullet would be better. I have some old Federal Nyclad 125gr(25 or so) but they are old from the 90's. I could pull them and reload them but I really don't want to carry my Reloads for defense because of legal reasons.
What are ya'lls recommendations for a store bought, non +P 38 SPL defensive load, one that is not going to recoil too bad or create too much pressure in an older gun.
What are ya'lls recommendations for a store bought, non +P 38 SPL defensive load, one that is not going to recoil too bad or create too much pressure in an older gun.
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Sam, I'll be interested to hear the comments on this subject. My only personal point of reference with actual use of .38 special ammo/semi-wadcutters would be 6 +P semi's (non-hollow point) and a range of about 10" from a 4" S&W duty weapon. Lots more details, but they aren't appropriate for this venue. Feel free to PM me if ya want more in-depth info. I'll be happy to fill in the blanks. 0 -
Federal Hydra-Shok Low recoil .38 Special. 0 -
Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain ...they have both regular and +p versions AND they have Critical Defense Lite with a 90 grain bullet. Hornady American Gunner 125 grain XTP hollowpoint non +p. I?ve used all of them in a Taurus 850 snubby and it?s great ammo. 0 -
Sam my S&W 642 is loaded with Buffalo Bore #20C/20 standard pressure 158 gr soft lead SWCHP which is supposed to be running 854 fps out of a 2" model 60 S&W. I have always used this bullet but before I found BB I would use the +P loads from Win. or Rem. or Fed. I think the standard load from BB is about the same as the +P from the other guys. This was the old FBI load as well as the Chicago PD and the Mounties load. I like good cast bullets and recoil seems mild.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1100 -
I don't understand your worry about +P ammo. you are going to shoot 6 rounds of it to check function then you are going to carry the gun till you need it to STOP a threat.
I always recommended Super Vels back in old days to leos using a snub nose gun.
Super Vel is now back in business making the best short barrel ammo out there.
https://revolverguy.com/super-vel-super-snub-38-p/
I laffed at cops that wanted a mild recoiling load for their undercover work.
Taught them if you have to pull the trigger, the first shot better be good enuff to stop the threat till you hit them again if needed.
Are you worried muzzle flash might hurt the SOB's eyes??? Or too much noise might scare him?
A gun carried for self defense should have the MOST powerful, man stopping ammo available. You are not shooting holes in a paper target.
You are going to kill a person.....any other thinking will get YOU killed.
NOT MHO !0 -
Sam06 wrote:...I really don't want to carry my Reloads for defense because of legal reasons.
That's an old wives tale. There's not a single court case any where that has ever caused anyone to get into trouble.
I don't carry reloads I carry new ammo that I've made with new brass, primers, powder and bullets on equipment that's all been bought legally here in the US. I have as much right making my own ammo as anyone has making it for me to buy.0 -
Carry what you want to, the fact it is your reloads means nothing in the legal sense if you are justified in a shooting. Your wad cutter load is fine especially a 148 hollow base loaded backwards. I agree with the Hornaday critical defense for factory loads. It is good ammo. 0 -
Bought a Charter Arms Pink Lady for the wife.
Called charter arms and asked them if +P was ok.
Response was, " +P is safe in the gun but a waste of effort in anything less than a 6 inch barrel".
Short barrel has no where for the extra +P load to burn and create velocity. Makes a lot flash and noise is the only benefit.0 -
The reason +P really doesn't do anything for me is you get a lot of blast for no real increase in power especially in a 1.8" barrel.
Ricci I have not looked at that BB load but will do some research.
I am not really worried about the legal ramifications of handloads but it just one more thing to worry about and I don't want too. I live in NC where the DA went all out to convict some guys of rape which never happened.
I looked at the critical defense ammo and I like the 110gr Low Recoil load.
My feeling on snub nose revolvers especially a 38 spl is you are going to need a few shots. I am a good shot but with a snubbie not so much because I have not practiced with them all that much.
Also I am thinking about muzzle blast in an enclosed area and the unburned powder flash from the shot at night blinding the shooter.
Older S&W's especially the AL framed J frames really should be fed +P ammo and if I am going to carry the gun I will shoot it with the carry load until I feel proficient with it in all foreseeable scenarios, not just 5 rounds to confirm zero and start CC the thing.
Thanks for the responses, I will start doing some more research.
I like this so far but they are spendy:
Due to customer demand, we've developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.
1. It won't hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a "fight stopper" through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.
Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo.
This stuff looks good to anyone try it?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/132030/buffalo-bore-ammunition-38-special-short-barrel-110-grain-barnes-tac-xp-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20#0 -
Sam, sent you a PM. 0 -
I carry a Smith 637 at times, also a .38. I load it with Black Hills Honey badgers. 0 -
babun---l have quite a collection of the OLD Super Vel ammo in 380acp, 9mm, 38Super, 38Spcl, 357Mag, 44Mag. Several of the calibers l have Super Vel and Super Vel ''POLICE''... The 38spcl and 357mag loads have 110gr JHP projectiles... Being 40 yr old ammo purchased on the secondary market l have not fired any. l have weighed the standard vs 'police' tho. Police rds weigh slightly MORE. 0nly firsthand experience l have had was with 180gr jhp 44Magnum SV ammo... Back in the late 70s our silh match director had an 0hler P chrony... Five of these 180s averaged 1803fps from my 8'' S&W revolver...
With reference to the original post-- l carry handloads in my 38 snubbys... 158gr Rem swc bullets in new brass0 -
Sam06 wrote:The reason +P really doesn't do anything for me is you get a lot of blast for no real increase in power especially in a 1.8" barrel.
Using that logic a .22 cal. would be all the power you could get out of a 1.8" barrel. There would be no real increase in power going to a .38 Special or larger because all you'd get is a lot of blast.
I carry a S&W 340PD .357 Mag snubby and you don't have to do a ballistic test to know it's got a lot more power than a .38 Special of any load +P or not.0 -
fatcat458 wrote:babun---l have quite a collection of the OLD Super Vel ammo in 380acp, 9mm, 38Super, 38Spcl, 357Mag, 44Mag. Several of the calibers l have Super Vel and Super Vel ''POLICE''... The 38spcl and 357mag loads have 110gr JHP projectiles... Being 40 yr old ammo purchased on the secondary market l have not fired any. l have weighed the standard vs 'police' tho. Police rds weigh slightly MORE. 0nly firsthand experience l have had was with 180gr jhp 44Magnum SV ammo... Back in the late 70s our silh match director had an 0hler P chrony... Five of these 180s averaged 1803fps from my 8'' S&W revolver...
With reference to the original post-- l carry handloads in my 38 snubbys... 158gr Rem swc bullets in new brass
How about the new .38 snubies Super vels....90 grain hp leaving a 1 7/8 inch barrel at 1310fps.
That will get someone's attention~!!0 -
Sam, I tried sending a reply via PM. Didn't seem to go thru. I emailed the message instead. Lemme know if it gets there. 0 -
ChrisStreett wrote:Sam, I tried sending a reply via PM. Didn't seem to go thru. I emailed the message instead. Lemme know if it gets there.
I got and thanks.
From doing some research I have just about come to the conclusion that standard pressure HP 38 spl from a snubbie is mostly a waste of money and time. The BB 158gr and the Hornaday Critical defense 110 seem to preform about the best. I am thinking about just continue using Lead SWC or even FMJ in it.
Expansion is nice but we all know shot placement and penetration are what does the job.
Shot placement is going to be based on practice with the gun and load, skill of the shooter and POI with fixed iron sights.
Penetration is going to be based on speed and weight of the bullet. From what I have seen and read the Hollow point standard velocity 38 spl slows down penetration when it expands and if it doesn't expand it acts like a wadcutter.
So I think I am going to look for a load that shoots to POA, Penetrates well and is comfortable to shoot in a snubbie without a lot of flash and smoke.
Thanks for all the replies this has opened my eyes some.0 -
I see you already made up your mind, but I'm another vote for Critical Defense. I use the 90gr lites in my LCR. 0 -
Not by any means a "non, +P load.
I load Buffalo Bore P+P semi- jacketed petaled copper cased, , soft lead nose hollow points, in my 642 Airweight. .38 Special.0 -
No you don?t. 0 -
KenK/84Bravo wrote:Not by any means a "non, +P load.
I load Buffalo Bore P+P semi- jacketed petaled copper cased, , soft lead nose hollow points, in my 642 Airweight. .38 Special.
It must feel like a bomb going off in your hand when you shoot it
I am not all that recoil sensitive but I don't like seeing my hand and the gun disappear after squeezing the trigger. I shot one of those scandium jframe 357 mags a few times with full house 158gr 357 in it. My whole hand was encased in a ball of fire and the recoil was so stout there was no way I was going to get a follow up shot in anything under 5 seconds. The guy who had it had been shooting and practicing with pussy cat 38spls and had NEVER shot his carry load, he had carried that load for a year! He was shooting next to me at the FBNC range on post and I thought his gun blew up when he shot it. I had to really concentrate to keep my shots in any kind of group.0 -
Smitty500mag wrote:Sam06 wrote:...I really don't want to carry my Reloads for defense because of legal reasons.
That's an old wives tale. There's not a single court case any where that has ever caused anyone to get into trouble.
I don't carry reloads I carry new ammo that I've made with new brass, primers, powder and bullets on equipment that's all been bought legally here in the US. I have as much right making my own ammo as anyone has making it for me to buy.
You can bet your bottom Dollar the prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer will go out of their way to stress your evil intent. I was a juror on a murder trial & the prosecutor mentioned the hollow point bullet that was used several times. He did mess up once when he asked a detective why anyone would use such ammo. I could hardly keep from laughing when the detective said he used them because they were safer because they prevented over penetration that might endanger innocent bystanders.
You will not be punished for using them but their use will be stressed to the jury.0 -
gruntled2 wrote:Smitty500mag wrote:Sam06 wrote:...I really don't want to carry my Reloads for defense because of legal reasons.
That's an old wives tale. There's not a single court case any where that has ever caused anyone to get into trouble.
I don't carry reloads I carry new ammo that I've made with new brass, primers, powder and bullets on equipment that's all been bought legally here in the US. I have as much right making my own ammo as anyone has making it for me to buy.
You can bet your bottom Dollar the prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer will go out of their way to stress your evil intent. I was a juror on a murder trial & the prosecutor mentioned the hollow point bullet that was used several times. He did mess up once when he asked a detective why anyone would use such ammo. I could hardly keep from laughing when the detective said he used them because they were safer because they prevented over penetration that might endanger innocent bystanders.
You will not be punished for using them but their use will be stressed to the jury.
I agree and so does Mas Ayoob who is considered an expert witness.
https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry
So I will just go along with that old wives tale and use store bought ammo as close to what cops carry in my state as I can0 -
I hear that them Silver Serfer bullets will knock a man back six or eight feet when they hit em. I saw on the utube and they was blowing up jugs of colored water and pumpkins and such. You need some of them. 0 -
Have you ever thought of reloading 148 gr. hollow based semi wadcutters backwards in the case. I tried it about 40 years ago when I had a 38 special, I was quite impressed. You can push the velocity up some account of the bullet being reversed. If you could find some hollow based wadcutters made out of soft lead would even be better, but I don't know of anyone that manufactures any HB wadcutters out of pure lead. 0
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