HR 8 just passed :(
Summary
HR8 requires that loans, gifts, and sales of firearms be processed by a gun store. The same fees, paperwork, and permanent record-keeping apply as to buying a new gun from the store. If you loan a gun to a friend without going to the gun store, the penalty is the same as for knowingly selling a gun to a convicted violent felon. Likewise, when the friend returns the gun, another trip to the gun store is necessary, upon pain of felony.
A clever trick in HR8 effectively bans handguns for persons 18-to20.
The bill has some narrow exemptions. The minuscule exemption for self-defense does not cover stalking victims. None of the exemptions cover farming and ranching, sharing guns on almost all public and private lands, or storing guns with friends while on vacation. The limited exemption for family excludes first cousins and in-laws.
The bill authorizes unlimited fees to be imposed by regulation.
Self-defense
There is a partial exemption for immediate self-defense: "(D) a temporary transfer that is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm, if the possession by the transferee lasts only as long as immediately necessary to prevent the imminent death or great bodily harm".
The narrowness of the self-defense exemption endangers domestic violence victims. For example, a former domestic partner threatens a woman and her children. An attack might come in the next hour, or the next month, or never. The victim and her children cannot know. Because the attack is uncertain?and is certainly not "immediate"?the woman cannot borrow a handgun from a neighbor for her defense. Many domestic violence victims do not have several hundred spare dollars so that they can buy their own gun. Sometimes, threats are manifested at night, when gun stores are not open.
Handgun ban for young adults
Since 1968, federal law has said that gun stores may not sell handguns to persons under 21. 18 U.S.C. ? 922(c)(1). Congress has not chosen to prohibit persons aged 18-20 from acquiring handguns elsewhere. The large majority of states allow handgun possession by persons 18-20.
Some legislators have forthrightly introduced bills to impose a ban on young adults. HR8 prohibits young adults from acquiring handguns, but does so with a clever subterfuge.
HR8 requires almost all firearms sales and loans to be conducted by a federally-licensed dealer. Because federal law prohibits licensed dealers from transferring handguns to persons under 21 years, HR8 prevents young adults from acquiring handguns. This is a clever way to enact a handgun ban indirectly.
HR8 would prohibit a 20-year-old woman who lives on her own from acquiring a handgun for self-defense in her home, such as by buying it from a relative or borrowing it from a friend.
Although HR8 allows young adults to acquire handguns by parental gift, not all young adults who are living on their own receive parental largesse.
Exorbitant fees may be imposed by regulation
''(3)(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Attorney General may implement this sub-section with regulations."
''(D) Regulations promulgated under this paragraph may not include any provision placing a cap on the fee licensees may charge to facilitate transfers in accordance with paragraph (1)."
Regulators may set a minimum fee, but not "a cap on a fee." The Attorney General is allowed to require that every gun store charge a fee of $30, $50, $150, or more. Even a $20 fee can be a hard burden to a poor person.
Farming and Ranching
HR8 has a limited exemption for "hunting, trapping, or fishing"?but not for ranching or farming.
Firearms transfers at farms and ranches are part of routine operations. Some transfers might last a few hours, while others last for several weeks?as when a ranch hand takes a gun to guard a flock night and day during calving season. Under HR8, the transfer is allowed only when the farmer or rancher stays in the hand's "presence." This is impractical; often the hand needs to do work in one location, and the farmer or rancher in another.
Under HR8, for a farmer or rancher to lend a firearm to an employee, they both must travel to a gun store to process the transfer. When the employee returns the firearm, everyone must return again to the gun store.
Because few farms and ranches are located near gun stores, the process typically requires hours of travel for the loan, and hours more for the return. This takes the farmer, the rancher, and their hands away from the farm or ranch during what may be the busiest period of the year, when everyone needs to work from sunup to sundown.
Family members
You can make a "a loan or bona fide gift" to some family members. In-laws and cousins are excluded.
The family exemption vanishes if one family member pays the other in any way. If a brother trades an extra shotgun to his sister in exchange for her extra television, both of them have to go to a gun store. Their exchange will have all the fees and paperwork as if she were buying a gun from the store.
Outlawing gun sharing on public and private property
There is an exemption for sharing guns "(i) at a shooting range or in a shooting gallery or other area designated for the purpose of target shooting".
Not everyone has access to a "designated" target range. In rural areas with low population density, the nearest designated range may be far away. In urban areas, the waiting lists for membership in a gun club may stretch out for years. Designated public ranges exist, but in many areas, there are few or none. Those that do exist may be a long ways away, or may be crowded, with long waiting times.
Accordingly, Americans have always engage in target practice at informal ranges on public lands. Today, many of these lands are owned by the U.S. National Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, or a state or local equivalent.
Private property may be also used, with the owner's consent. The general legal rule is that shooting is lawful anywhere in rural areas, except for specified sites, such near public roads. Of course one must always obey all safety rules, which includes ensuring that there is a safe backstop to the target, such as a mound of dirt.
HR8 prohibits firearms sharing on public or private lands that have not been "designated for the purpose of target shooting."
For example: you own a 120 acre farm. Your cousins and brother-in-law come for a visit, and they want to camp outside. You want to loan them your handgun for protection. This is forbidden by HR8. Under the bill, the family must travel to a gun store to process the loan and collect the fees. Later, when your relatives want to return your handgun, there must be another trip to gun store, with the same paperwork and fees.
Under HR8, the returned of a loaned gun is treated the same as the purchase of a new gun.
Museums
There is no exemption for loaning firearms to a museum. After Washington State enacted a law similar to HR8, the law immediately caused problems for the Lynden Pioneer Museum, in Bellingham, which had a "WWII Pacific Theater" exhibit that included rifles that had been loaned to the museum for display.
Safe storage discouraged
Consider a person who will be away from home for an extended period: a member of the armed services being deployed overseas, a person going away to school, a person going on a long vacation, or a person evacuating her home due to a natural disaster. Such persons might wish to store firearms with a trusted neighbor or friend. This type of storage should be encouraged. Guns are less likely to be stolen by burglars, and then sold into the black market, if they are kept in an occupied home rather than left in a house that will be unoccupied.
But under HR8, neighbor A can only store neighbor B's guns if both persons go to a gun store, fill out extensive paperwork for each and every gun to be stored, pay per-gun fees to the government and the gun store, and then repeat the process when the firearms are returned. As a result, many fewer people will go through all the trouble. So more guns will be left in unoccupied dwellings; they will be at greater risk of being stolen and thus of being supplied to the criminal black market. Discouraging safe storage is among the ways HR8 harms public safety.
HR8 requires that loans, gifts, and sales of firearms be processed by a gun store. The same fees, paperwork, and permanent record-keeping apply as to buying a new gun from the store. If you loan a gun to a friend without going to the gun store, the penalty is the same as for knowingly selling a gun to a convicted violent felon. Likewise, when the friend returns the gun, another trip to the gun store is necessary, upon pain of felony.
A clever trick in HR8 effectively bans handguns for persons 18-to20.
The bill has some narrow exemptions. The minuscule exemption for self-defense does not cover stalking victims. None of the exemptions cover farming and ranching, sharing guns on almost all public and private lands, or storing guns with friends while on vacation. The limited exemption for family excludes first cousins and in-laws.
The bill authorizes unlimited fees to be imposed by regulation.
Self-defense
There is a partial exemption for immediate self-defense: "(D) a temporary transfer that is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm, if the possession by the transferee lasts only as long as immediately necessary to prevent the imminent death or great bodily harm".
The narrowness of the self-defense exemption endangers domestic violence victims. For example, a former domestic partner threatens a woman and her children. An attack might come in the next hour, or the next month, or never. The victim and her children cannot know. Because the attack is uncertain?and is certainly not "immediate"?the woman cannot borrow a handgun from a neighbor for her defense. Many domestic violence victims do not have several hundred spare dollars so that they can buy their own gun. Sometimes, threats are manifested at night, when gun stores are not open.
Handgun ban for young adults
Since 1968, federal law has said that gun stores may not sell handguns to persons under 21. 18 U.S.C. ? 922(c)(1). Congress has not chosen to prohibit persons aged 18-20 from acquiring handguns elsewhere. The large majority of states allow handgun possession by persons 18-20.
Some legislators have forthrightly introduced bills to impose a ban on young adults. HR8 prohibits young adults from acquiring handguns, but does so with a clever subterfuge.
HR8 requires almost all firearms sales and loans to be conducted by a federally-licensed dealer. Because federal law prohibits licensed dealers from transferring handguns to persons under 21 years, HR8 prevents young adults from acquiring handguns. This is a clever way to enact a handgun ban indirectly.
HR8 would prohibit a 20-year-old woman who lives on her own from acquiring a handgun for self-defense in her home, such as by buying it from a relative or borrowing it from a friend.
Although HR8 allows young adults to acquire handguns by parental gift, not all young adults who are living on their own receive parental largesse.
Exorbitant fees may be imposed by regulation
''(3)(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Attorney General may implement this sub-section with regulations."
''(D) Regulations promulgated under this paragraph may not include any provision placing a cap on the fee licensees may charge to facilitate transfers in accordance with paragraph (1)."
Regulators may set a minimum fee, but not "a cap on a fee." The Attorney General is allowed to require that every gun store charge a fee of $30, $50, $150, or more. Even a $20 fee can be a hard burden to a poor person.
Farming and Ranching
HR8 has a limited exemption for "hunting, trapping, or fishing"?but not for ranching or farming.
Firearms transfers at farms and ranches are part of routine operations. Some transfers might last a few hours, while others last for several weeks?as when a ranch hand takes a gun to guard a flock night and day during calving season. Under HR8, the transfer is allowed only when the farmer or rancher stays in the hand's "presence." This is impractical; often the hand needs to do work in one location, and the farmer or rancher in another.
Under HR8, for a farmer or rancher to lend a firearm to an employee, they both must travel to a gun store to process the transfer. When the employee returns the firearm, everyone must return again to the gun store.
Because few farms and ranches are located near gun stores, the process typically requires hours of travel for the loan, and hours more for the return. This takes the farmer, the rancher, and their hands away from the farm or ranch during what may be the busiest period of the year, when everyone needs to work from sunup to sundown.
Family members
You can make a "a loan or bona fide gift" to some family members. In-laws and cousins are excluded.
The family exemption vanishes if one family member pays the other in any way. If a brother trades an extra shotgun to his sister in exchange for her extra television, both of them have to go to a gun store. Their exchange will have all the fees and paperwork as if she were buying a gun from the store.
Outlawing gun sharing on public and private property
There is an exemption for sharing guns "(i) at a shooting range or in a shooting gallery or other area designated for the purpose of target shooting".
Not everyone has access to a "designated" target range. In rural areas with low population density, the nearest designated range may be far away. In urban areas, the waiting lists for membership in a gun club may stretch out for years. Designated public ranges exist, but in many areas, there are few or none. Those that do exist may be a long ways away, or may be crowded, with long waiting times.
Accordingly, Americans have always engage in target practice at informal ranges on public lands. Today, many of these lands are owned by the U.S. National Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, or a state or local equivalent.
Private property may be also used, with the owner's consent. The general legal rule is that shooting is lawful anywhere in rural areas, except for specified sites, such near public roads. Of course one must always obey all safety rules, which includes ensuring that there is a safe backstop to the target, such as a mound of dirt.
HR8 prohibits firearms sharing on public or private lands that have not been "designated for the purpose of target shooting."
For example: you own a 120 acre farm. Your cousins and brother-in-law come for a visit, and they want to camp outside. You want to loan them your handgun for protection. This is forbidden by HR8. Under the bill, the family must travel to a gun store to process the loan and collect the fees. Later, when your relatives want to return your handgun, there must be another trip to gun store, with the same paperwork and fees.
Under HR8, the returned of a loaned gun is treated the same as the purchase of a new gun.
Museums
There is no exemption for loaning firearms to a museum. After Washington State enacted a law similar to HR8, the law immediately caused problems for the Lynden Pioneer Museum, in Bellingham, which had a "WWII Pacific Theater" exhibit that included rifles that had been loaned to the museum for display.
Safe storage discouraged
Consider a person who will be away from home for an extended period: a member of the armed services being deployed overseas, a person going away to school, a person going on a long vacation, or a person evacuating her home due to a natural disaster. Such persons might wish to store firearms with a trusted neighbor or friend. This type of storage should be encouraged. Guns are less likely to be stolen by burglars, and then sold into the black market, if they are kept in an occupied home rather than left in a house that will be unoccupied.
But under HR8, neighbor A can only store neighbor B's guns if both persons go to a gun store, fill out extensive paperwork for each and every gun to be stored, pay per-gun fees to the government and the gun store, and then repeat the process when the firearms are returned. As a result, many fewer people will go through all the trouble. So more guns will be left in unoccupied dwellings; they will be at greater risk of being stolen and thus of being supplied to the criminal black market. Discouraging safe storage is among the ways HR8 harms public safety.
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WOW,, What a pile of dung... 0 -
How does one enforce this law, without a national registration? 0 -
I?m looking for a list of Republicans that voted for it. So far I can only find a list with all votes but not what party they belong to and I don?t know all of the Congressmen?s affiliations. I do know it was a bipartisan bill. I don?t trust Turtle McConnell or Trump not to pass this. 0 -
This latest violation of the 2nd amendment is shameful. The vote count was not close. We are being sold out by our representatives. This kind of knee jerk legislation does nothing to help public safety. It punishes the legal gun owners and likely will enhance markets for felons and illegals to get guns. 0 -
Apparently 8 Republicans voted for it and a couple of Democrats voted against it.
Therefore, support for the bill was bi-partisan and rejection of the bill was also bi-partisan.
Don't really see the big deal.
Those of you who support the NICS and the NRA should support this bill.
It simply completes the law that you already support, and, frankly was inevitable once the original law was passed.
Is it a bad thing because it may actually effect you now?
I hope McConnell brings it to a vote on the Senate floor, just like his threat for the Green New Deal.
It will show us who is who in the US Senate, and force our President to veto a bill that supposedly has overwhelming popular support.
Sure, it may turn out bad, but it expose each and every one of these jack-wads that pretend to respect the 2nd Amendment Rights of we the People.0 -
This is a bunch of BS 0 -
Welcome to Kalifornia, and if you think this sucks, wait until they copy the ammo buying laws too. No internet buying, ftf sales have to go through an FFL, no ammo bought outside the state, can be brought in, and no trades or gifting is just a sample. 0 -
Well the anti's had their way. Now the bump stock question waiting to hit the courts will have a slim chance even going anywhere. I predict a black market on firearms coming soon. 0 -
It will be interesting if McConnell allows a debate and vote on such legislation. Trump has already indicated he'll veto it. 0 -
Senate won't even bring it to the floor 0 -
The Senate will reject. If they dont the president will certainly veto this violation of the 2nd amendment. 0 -
select-fire wrote:Well the anti's had their way. Now the bump stock question waiting to hit the courts will have a slim chance even going anywhere. I predict a black market on firearms coming soon.
You call it a "black market", I call it a "free market".0 -
DBMJR1 wrote:How does one enforce this law, without a national registration?
Every firearm sale and or firearm transfer that passes thru a FFL dealer creates a paper record.
IF anyone believes the Feds are not retaining that information, you are fooling yourself.
The Feds have lied to the American people for centuries and now is no different.0 -
This has more to do with the yunguns than us old guys.
But, everyone should consider buying everything they need now including ammo for a life time (while prices are dirt cheap)
The guy who survived the Yugoslav break up and does the SHTF seminars stated people should have firearms and ammo that has no paper trail. The first thing a government does is come for registered guns and says we will protect you and of course they never do
Can't help but wonder if the partisanship continues to expand if we will not Balkanize
The left certainly seems to be pushing for all to capitulate or rebel
"We are the Socialist Democrats you will be assimilated"0 -
For the record, here's the GOP House members that voted with the collective:
? Buchanan, Vernon (FL)
? Diaz-Balart, Mario (FL)
? Fitzpatrick, Brian (PA)
? Hurd, Will (TX)
? King, Peter (NY)
? Mast, Brian (FL)
? Smith, Chris (NJ)
? Upton, Fred (MI)0 -
When election time comes, it would do good to remind people hour their representatives voted on this, even if the Senate doesn't pass it or if Trump vetos it. 0 -
vote em all out of office...????????. 0 -
+10 pip5255 wrote:vote em all out of office...????????.0 -
I choose to ignore laws passed by people I did not vote for. 0
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