My thoughts on the HPD Shooting:
I know I?m going to pi$$ off some of my fellow LEO brothers, but after 36 years in Law Enfocement I have come to look at things with a bit of suspicion. After serving in Investigations, and many of those as an Internal Affairs Investigator I have become num to what some people are telling me is their version of the truth.
The Police raid a few days ago in Houston where four officer got shot by the perp has had me thinking about it quite a bit. I know what the Officers were doing, and what they were thinking when they did it. They most likely had the right house, but was it worth such a dramatic entry for a little bit of Black Tar?
I grew up in that part of Houston. The fact that the subjects were white doesn?t surprise me. And, almost everyone there owns an inexpensive home security system Land Shark/Lawn Gator (Pit Bull).
I suspect the PD knew the dog was there ahead of time. They had already made a buy from the house, so I?m sure they were aware the dog was present. This is even more evidenced by the first Officer through the door using a shotgun on entry. They expected to have to shoot that dog before they went inside, and were prepared to do so.
So? imagine if your the wife and your sitting in your living room watching Jeopardy onTV, when a bunch of guys at the same time holler ?POLICE?, while at the same time busting your door in.
The dog doing what it should reacts, and gets shot right off. The wife startled & scared to death jumps up and grabs for the shotgun welding bad guy that just killed her beloved pet and gets shot by another entry officer who is all hyped up, because of the dynamics of the situation. Almost like a knee jerk reaction.
Now imagine that this has all happened in a matter of a few seconds, and the husband a disabled Navy Veteran (who may have had some training in self defense), was in the back of the house hears all this excitement and retrieved a handgun for his families protection. He runs to the front & may have even witnessed his wife get shot. Officer?s on the scene described it happening like this, but what was on the husbands mind we can only imagine!
Guess what he dose? What almost anyone of you would have done. He starts shooting in vengeance ?Shoot my wife & dog will you?. He did a pretty good job till the over powering onslaught of returning gun fire took him out.
Ask yourself, did this have to go down like it did? Could they have waited till he exited the house & stopped him on the street, returned to the house, had them secure the dog, and still searched the house. NO, they wanted the dramatic No Knock entry, just like the ATF did in Waco...remember that one? It didn?t workout too well for them either, and they have spent the last 25 years trying to spin it their way. Now these two suspects are being spun up to be big time Black Tar dealers, who were armed against authority.
Remember the Waco PD spokesman who was all over TV a few years ago trying to paint the Outlaw bikers in a bad light (Not that they needed it) after their officers got excited over a bar fight and shot & killed almost all those who died?
The Chief of Police & HPD Union Representative are following the same script. Paint the bad guys as bad as you can so that you get the public?s sympathy. Now anyone who challenges them will be tarnished as Cop Haters, well I?m not a Cop Hater, I just know how things work from both sides.
The Police don?t like being confronted our have their authority challenged. But, they need to think long & hard on if a No Knock warrant is best served in this manner. Yea, a bunch of gang bangers who you suspect may dispose of evidence or if someone inside is in danger I can understand, but even the disposal of evidence is a bit weak. There are procedures that can be taken to prevent it from happening & all they had to do was coordinate with the Public Works Department ahead of time for assistance.
How many of you here have firearms at home? How many have a dog that might protect you if someone broke into your home? I bet there are even some of you who have a little pot stashed somewhere. I sure wouldn?t bet against that one after reading some of the post typed around here...[;)]
A neighbor complained about drugs being sold from this house. Heck, every third house on that street probably deals. The neighbor was probably jealous that they were taking away their customers, or that they were undercutting them.
Whatever the reason the PD felt the reason for such a dramatic entry was, I?m sure they are second guessing themselfs now. They all need to get on the same sheet of music, and prepare for the onslaught of second guessing that is coming after the dust settles.
Wouldn?t you love to be a fly of the wall when that after action report takes place? I just don?t think a lot of thought was put into conducting this raid. Some of those senior Officers involved are probably turning in their retirement paper work right now.
Bottom line, if you shoot at the Police you are going to receive return fire. As the Police we need to ensure we are not stacking the deck in favor of receiving an armed confrontation.
To protect & serve means to protect each other as well as the public, and the criminal from harm he/she may cause.
Remember, these are my thoughts only, and they are not endorsed by any Law Enforcement agency.
Trinity +++
The Police raid a few days ago in Houston where four officer got shot by the perp has had me thinking about it quite a bit. I know what the Officers were doing, and what they were thinking when they did it. They most likely had the right house, but was it worth such a dramatic entry for a little bit of Black Tar?
I grew up in that part of Houston. The fact that the subjects were white doesn?t surprise me. And, almost everyone there owns an inexpensive home security system Land Shark/Lawn Gator (Pit Bull).
I suspect the PD knew the dog was there ahead of time. They had already made a buy from the house, so I?m sure they were aware the dog was present. This is even more evidenced by the first Officer through the door using a shotgun on entry. They expected to have to shoot that dog before they went inside, and were prepared to do so.
So? imagine if your the wife and your sitting in your living room watching Jeopardy onTV, when a bunch of guys at the same time holler ?POLICE?, while at the same time busting your door in.
The dog doing what it should reacts, and gets shot right off. The wife startled & scared to death jumps up and grabs for the shotgun welding bad guy that just killed her beloved pet and gets shot by another entry officer who is all hyped up, because of the dynamics of the situation. Almost like a knee jerk reaction.
Now imagine that this has all happened in a matter of a few seconds, and the husband a disabled Navy Veteran (who may have had some training in self defense), was in the back of the house hears all this excitement and retrieved a handgun for his families protection. He runs to the front & may have even witnessed his wife get shot. Officer?s on the scene described it happening like this, but what was on the husbands mind we can only imagine!
Guess what he dose? What almost anyone of you would have done. He starts shooting in vengeance ?Shoot my wife & dog will you?. He did a pretty good job till the over powering onslaught of returning gun fire took him out.
Ask yourself, did this have to go down like it did? Could they have waited till he exited the house & stopped him on the street, returned to the house, had them secure the dog, and still searched the house. NO, they wanted the dramatic No Knock entry, just like the ATF did in Waco...remember that one? It didn?t workout too well for them either, and they have spent the last 25 years trying to spin it their way. Now these two suspects are being spun up to be big time Black Tar dealers, who were armed against authority.
Remember the Waco PD spokesman who was all over TV a few years ago trying to paint the Outlaw bikers in a bad light (Not that they needed it) after their officers got excited over a bar fight and shot & killed almost all those who died?
The Chief of Police & HPD Union Representative are following the same script. Paint the bad guys as bad as you can so that you get the public?s sympathy. Now anyone who challenges them will be tarnished as Cop Haters, well I?m not a Cop Hater, I just know how things work from both sides.
The Police don?t like being confronted our have their authority challenged. But, they need to think long & hard on if a No Knock warrant is best served in this manner. Yea, a bunch of gang bangers who you suspect may dispose of evidence or if someone inside is in danger I can understand, but even the disposal of evidence is a bit weak. There are procedures that can be taken to prevent it from happening & all they had to do was coordinate with the Public Works Department ahead of time for assistance.
How many of you here have firearms at home? How many have a dog that might protect you if someone broke into your home? I bet there are even some of you who have a little pot stashed somewhere. I sure wouldn?t bet against that one after reading some of the post typed around here...[;)]
A neighbor complained about drugs being sold from this house. Heck, every third house on that street probably deals. The neighbor was probably jealous that they were taking away their customers, or that they were undercutting them.
Whatever the reason the PD felt the reason for such a dramatic entry was, I?m sure they are second guessing themselfs now. They all need to get on the same sheet of music, and prepare for the onslaught of second guessing that is coming after the dust settles.
Wouldn?t you love to be a fly of the wall when that after action report takes place? I just don?t think a lot of thought was put into conducting this raid. Some of those senior Officers involved are probably turning in their retirement paper work right now.
Bottom line, if you shoot at the Police you are going to receive return fire. As the Police we need to ensure we are not stacking the deck in favor of receiving an armed confrontation.
To protect & serve means to protect each other as well as the public, and the criminal from harm he/she may cause.
Remember, these are my thoughts only, and they are not endorsed by any Law Enforcement agency.
Trinity +++
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There is nothing better than a good Cop. There is nothing worse than a bad one. 0 -
My thoughts have always been that No Knocks are dangerous for all concerned. The bad guys have weapons and are not afraid to use them. If you get the wrong house you are most likely going to end up harming or killing an innocent as they react to what they consider a home invasion.
I had originally thought the narcotics officers had purchased there, but it is appearing they relied upon a confidential informant. They may or may not have gotten the correct house or perhaps not all the information about what/who was in the house. I agree that it would have been better to just wait on the street for them to leave for whatever reason and pick them up on a traffic stop. Less likelihood of the encounter turning deadly.
It is unfortunate they were injured in the operation and I hope for a speedy recovery.
I will not make a judgement as to errors made until/if they ever release the body cam footage.0 -
Medic07,
I am hearing that there is no body cam footage of this raid.
If anyone knows any different I would like to know.
Trinity +++0 -
Very Good observation Trinity, and after how many years after Waco does the thought of taking a perceived felon in their home instead of away come into play? After all going into the home teams field of advantage does the visitors ever have the upper hand?
I would believe that to get a warrant from a Judge you ALLREADY have evidence of a felony. Maybe not, but then what are you doing there anyway, guilty before proven innocent.
You can bet your ass that if I here shots from another room that there WILL be smoke coming from my direction, and the return fire will be shoulder high and above. How do I know who is being a dumbass in my house. And after the first shot inside you can't here a damn thing anyway.
Complex situation that needed more thought process than used.0 -
I think TS called it pretty close. Reading between the lines of the news coverage, that's how it appeared to me too.
A long time ago, I was in a class conducted by one of those high-speed low-drag types. He said that his PD had changed its procedure slightly on drug warrants. Since they were being met with gunfire so often, they wait a few minutes after smashing the door open, to see if anyone is going to come out, challenge, resist, etc.
Leave it to me to ask the dumb question: "If you're going to just stand there and give the bad guys a chance to destroy the drugs, why not just knock on the door?"
All I got from that was a blank stare.
We also argued a little over whether intervening material will deflect a bullet. His position was that ANY bullet, of ANY caliber, can be fired at ANY piece of glass, at ANY angle, and the bullet will not be deformed, defeated, or deflected in the slightest. He stated the bullet will continue on to its target and do its job. Every time.
I told him he was full of crap.
SWAT commanders don't like to be told they're full of crap.0 -
I also am unaware of any body cam footage at this time. I was hoping there would be in todays technological age.
Even if it came to light, I would at best be viewing it from a laymans perspective and not the knowledge that you and other LEOs have.0 -
Medic07,
I just read an article on the internet that scared me. It read almost exactly like what I wrote above...Hmmm?
It also said that there was no body cam footage, but that a house next door did have security cam footage, and that the Police were in custody of it.
Of course this won?t show what happened inside, but it should show what transpired outside before & after.
It could also show some history of the alleged comings & goings of the alleged drug dealings if they did in fact occur?
Trinity +++0 -
storm troopers....... like a badly written movie script 0 -
The police always circle the wagons on these events and never admit any wrongdoing. Only when the police raid a wrong house do they give a sort of I'm sorry. Just search "police raid wrong" and see all of the bungled raids. Hard to believe how incompetent some police agencies are, they do not seem to learn from their own mistakes. Too many agencies with Swat type teams overly eager to use their equipment. A more level headed, experienced command officer should have to approve all raids. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by medic07
My thoughts have always been that No Knocks are dangerous for all concerned. The bad guys have weapons and are not afraid to use them. If you get the wrong house you are most likely going to end up harming or killing an innocent as they react to what they consider a home invasion.
I had originally thought the narcotics officers had purchased there, but it is appearing they relied upon a confidential informant. They may or may not have gotten the correct house or perhaps not all the information about what/who was in the house. I agree that it would have been better to just wait on the street for them to leave for whatever reason and pick them up on a traffic stop. Less likelihood of the encounter turning deadly.
It is unfortunate they were injured in the operation and I hope for a speedy recovery.
I will not make a judgement as to errors made until/if they ever release the body cam footage.
I came to the conclusion some time ago that the days of the dynamic entry have past, and unless it's an extreme hostage situation or such then dynamic entries should not be used.
Situations like this strike me as creating an unnecessary confrontation. They could have surveilled the target house, waited until the suspects left and got them on a traffic stop down the street and then secured the house for the warrant service. No amount of dope is worth six people having their lives altered for ever in a moment of extreme violence.0 -
It is good to see that there are a few other people who think like I do, about how this all went down. So much stuff on the T V of storm trouper action, that it has gotten to be how to many police departments do things. To many movies and TV shows seems to have made some of the police use a more Gestapo type tactics.
Trinity I would bet that your version is closer to the truth than what we will ever receive from the police. Unfortunately with the swat teams and heavy hand tactics seem to be more of the norm, than using your head and making a safe for all arrest. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Trinity.0 -
The raid on Roger Stone's residence is a prime example of over kill. The FBI's justification for their tactics doesn't ring true either.[:(!]
If you're a hammer, you tend to see everything as a nail.0 -
I strongly believe that the raid at Waco was meant to be theater to show off the ATF capability for funding and political purpose.
Much the same as the recent raid on Roger Stone which was obviously set up with a political purpose in mind.
It is not always best tactics that drive a law enforcement raid.0 -
I have to agree with OP. They had evidence as mentioned with a previous buy.
To me, the other important question which should have been asked is:
Did the dealers have a history of violence?
There is also a reaction by the people under attack called "tunnel vision" where ones senses go blank, adrenaline hits the brain and "fight or flight" decision is made in a millisecond. Soldiers understand this phenomena and are trained to make the decision to fight.
A house is a mans castle, when you attack a mans castle, his family, and yes his dog, you should expect a most extreme and violent reaction. The US Army despises entry of safe houses because they usually take casualties. A mortar or bomb dropped saves soldiers lives.
Since Waco was mentioned, people who have lived there will tell you
Koresh, would often come to town and many people knew who he was and about his compound. He could have easily been arrested in town, on the road and many knew his car as it was the same one he always drove and he did not have a history of violence. People say he was approachable and friendly.
I agree with the "arrest outside" concept.
Again, it is the undeniable fact 4 policeman were hit with gunfire and put out of the fight is evidence mistakes or errors in judgment were made.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I think TS called it pretty close. Reading between the lines of the news coverage, that's how it appeared to me too.
A long time ago, I was in a class conducted by one of those high-speed low-drag types. He said that his PD had changed its procedure slightly on drug warrants. Since they were being met with gunfire so often, they wait a few minutes after smashing the door open, to see if anyone is going to come out, challenge, resist, etc.
Leave it to me to ask the dumb question: "If you're going to just stand there and give the bad guys a chance to destroy the drugs, why not just knock on the door?"
All I got from that was a blank stare.
We also argued a little over whether intervening material will deflect a bullet. His position was that ANY bullet, of ANY caliber, can be fired at ANY piece of glass, at ANY angle, and the bullet will not be deformed, defeated, or deflected in the slightest. He stated the bullet will continue on to its target and do its job. Every time.
I told him he was full of crap.
SWAT commanders don't like to be told they're full of crap.
WOW, and this guy is teaching others.0 -
I am just bummed officers got shot. No knock warrants have proven to be an effective tool for making war movies. not sure they are a good idea against Joe Blow Citizen. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by chiefr
Since Waco was mentioned, people who have lived there will tell you
Koresh, would often come to town and many people knew who he was and about his compound. He could have easily been arrested in town, on the road and many knew his car as it was the same one he always drove and he did not have a history of violence. People say he was approachable and friendly.
I agree with the "arrest outside" concept.
According to the re-enactments of WACO the undercover agent played by John Leguizamo pushed for them to take Koresh while he was off the compound jogging(which happened on a regular basis)....and he was shut down. For exact reason of a violent resistance. So the folks on the ground knew the potential for danger and were ignored.0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by chiefr
Since Waco was mentioned, people who have lived there will tell you
Koresh, would often come to town and many people knew who he was and about his compound. He could have easily been arrested in town, on the road and many knew his car as it was the same one he always drove and he did not have a history of violence. People say he was approachable and friendly.
I agree with the "arrest outside" concept.
According to the re-enactments of WACO the undercover agent played by John Leguizamo pushed for them to take Koresh while he was off the compound jogging(which happened on a regular basis)....and he was shut down. For exact reason of a violent resistance. So the folks on the ground knew the potential for danger and were ignored.
Yep
Consider Janet Reno and Bill Clinton were in power, somehow many facts were unreported and the Waco incident seems to be completely forgiven. Imagine if such were to happen under a Trump presidency.0 -
I think the swat tactics have went plumb overboard. Swat was created when Whitman shot up a bunch of folks from the tower there in Texas. Now when a Judge issues a no knock warrant they have a license to shoot or kill. Just wait , someday they will breach a door and explosives will be on the other side. Enough to take down a block. Or when swat gathers all together going in a home or up or down a stair. It looks comical. Not one officer will get injured but a whole pile of them will get stacked up. Totally unneeded when the bad guy has sold a little drugs. Police could do it another way but in all reality they want to show power to the public . I applaud you Trinity for posting that. Few will ever see the difference of opinion and stand up for their beliefs. Gut feeling also comes to into play. 0 -
It has been like that for as long as I can remember and it's getting worse not better. 0 -
Not to be Billy Bad A$$, but I usually have a firearm within arms reach of me inside my house. Usually more firepower available very close by, as well.
I also have a "Lawn Shark/ Lawn Gator, Pit Bull."
If you bust in my door, my dog will be headed your way, and/or On You. He is my best friend and extremely protective. (As I am of him.)
If you shoot him, LEO or not, breaking in to my house. It will probably be the last day for both of us.
Breaking down doors to peoples houses, may have unintended consequences. (As have been posted here.)0 -
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
Not to be Billy Bad A$$, but I usually have a firearm within arms reach of me inside my house. Usually more firepower available very close by, as well.
I also have a "Lawn Shark/ Lawn Gator, Pit Bull."
If you bust in my door, my dog will be headed your way, and/or On You. He is my best friend and extremely protective. (As I am of him.)
If you shoot him, LEO or not, breaking in to my house. It will probably be the last day for both of us.
Breaking down doors to peoples houses, may have unintended consequences. (As have been posted here.)
+1
I endorse this sentiment.
Trinity I would say you nailed it.
I have never been a cop but I have a bunch of experience with MOUT/Room and building clearing, SOT, CQC whatever you want to call it. You always go in Jacked up mentally even after you have done it literally 1000 times. Any hostile act toward you is going to result in shots fired.
And then it goes up another level.
Waco, Randy Weaver..................et all
And it never ends good for anyone.0 -
For what it's worth, I have been on a few drug raids. At some places, pit bulldogs were present. We never did shoot one. 0 -
Not a fan of "no-knock" warrants. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
For what it's worth, I have been on a few drug raids. At some places, pit bulldogs were present. We never did shoot one.
Curious, how did you control them nunn?
Mine would be none too happy, about someone busting in the front door.0 -
I was once the point man on a team taking down a Meth lab.
I was given a shotgun because they knew that the place was guarded by a couple of Pit Bulls.
It was a fenced in yard with a Trailer Home in Killeen Texas. As soon as we opened the gate to go into the yard the two dogs came from around the corner of the house running at us.
Everyone was yelling at me to shoot them, but I was raised with these kind of dogs, and in fact had two at home. I could see that they were not being aggressive, but were happy to see us, and wanted to play. Still I was being ordered to shoot them, so I grudgingly brought the shotgun up and leveled it at them, and hollered for them to stop.
Both dogs came to a sreaching hault, quickly turning and ran under the trailer home, where we didn?t see them again.
Even though it all worked out in the end, I was severely chastised afterwards for not having followed orders to shoot the dogs in the first place. I was told I was too indecisive, and put others in jeopardy by not reacting to the threat quick enough.
I took that all with a very large grain of salt. I was a rookie reserve Officer at the time, and felt I had just written the ticket for my dismissal. However, the Chief of our PD at the time backed me up, and another Texas Ranger, who was very well know, and may he RIP, came up to me slapped me on the back and said ?Don?t worry Larry, ya done good?. I put a lot of credence in his acceptance of my actions.
Trinity +++0 -
Thanks for this information. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
For what it's worth, I have been on a few drug raids. At some places, pit bulldogs were present. We never did shoot one.
Curious, how did you control them nunn?
Mine would be none too happy, about someone busting in the front door.
All of them we encountered were outside dogs, and all responded very well to pepper spray.0
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