Illegal P38?
I just purchased this gun on Gun Broker and was informed that the grind marks on the back (as seen in the picture) of the gun may have been an importers mark and to remove them is illegal. With that said, is it illegal for me to own the gun? And should I cancel payment on the check as It was just sent out yesterday? Lastly, am I covered by GB's policy or will cancelling the payment be a breach on my part? The seller did note the grind marks in the listing as "unknown why they were there".Thanks in advance for your assistance regarding this request.
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Raleigh[img][/img]
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I've never seen an importers mark there.
Either way, I wouldn't worry about it much.0 -
Are there any other serial numbers??? 0 -
Many WWII surplus guns had Nazi Eagles or Japanese Mums ground off, my K98 has the grind mark where the eagle would roost. If it was brought back to the US before the importer's marks were made a rule, one wouldn't be on there anyway.
Check your serial number on the 'net on a site that focuses on P-38's like waltherforum to see when it was made and by whom...it might just explain what you have etc...0 -
quote:Originally posted by duckhunter
Are there any other serial numbers???
Yes, it is an ac43 with s/n: 2957n all matching and 4/58 on the mag.0 -
It is not illegal to remove an importer mark, or possess a gun that has had it removed.
However, any kind of grinding on a collectible gun greatly reduces the value. If the photos/description failed to note this mutilation, then you are within your rights to request a refund.
A "shooter" P38, such as a post war gun, would sell for around $250; I would not expect to pay more than that for a mutilated wartime gun.
Neal
EDIT: Yes, it looks like the seller made full disclosure. But, no worry, it is definitely legal.
EDIT 2: Federal law requires that the importer apply a new serial number to a firearm if the manufacturer's SN contains special characters; e.g., a Russian SKS will have cyrillic characters in the SN. The new SN applied by the importer cannot be altered or obliterated, as dfletcher pointed out. The rest of the import marking (name, city, & state) can be removed.0 -
From GCA 68, FWIW ...
A? 922. Unlawful acts (k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
A? 178.92(a)(1) Firearms. Each licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of any firearm manufactured or imported shall legibly identify each such firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer or importer on any other firearm, and by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed, the model, if such designation has been made; the caliber or gauge; the name (or recognized abbreviation of same) of the manufacturer and also, when applicable, of the importer; in the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) wherein the licensed manufacturer maintains its place of business; and in the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) of the importer.
922 (k) indicates it's illegal to knowingly receive a firearm with serial number obliterated, but says nothing about information other than the serial number - but you didn't know (and still don't know) if the serial number has been obliterated. It goes on to say possession is prohibited - but drops the "knowingly" restriction. Which is a bit confusing.
178.92 (a) (1) requires the gun to be properly marked with importer, company name, etc, but says nothing about prohibiting removal of those markings. So while it may be that an importer is required to mark the gun, removal of the marking by the end user may not be prohibited.
If there is an importer mark and serial number elsewhere on the gun it would seem to me the area you've shown didn't contain the required information - importers aren't known for stamping their information twice.
If there's no other import information on the gun it could be the pistol was never stamped - could have come in country before GCA 68.
Another concern regarding serial number and identifying marks - many states have laws against removing or obliterating serial numbers or manufacturer ID information. Some are not gun specific but could be applied against guns, some states have restrictions that are gun specific.
Have you checked the whole gun for any import marks? They can be tiny as hell and well hidden.
There is an ATF letter floating around which affirms obliterating the serial number is illegal, but that it is not illegal to obliterate the other importer information.0 -
Apparently some importers did mark their P 38's in that location. Here is a photo of one I got off the net.
Since G.I. war time bring backs and early surplus imports prior to 1968, don't have importers markings. They are worth more money to collectors. My take on your P 38 is that some prior owner tried to enhance it's value, by defacing the importers markings.
Incidentally your magazine that is dated 4/58, is from a post W W II West German military P 38.0 -
quote: However, any kind of grinding on a collectible gun greatly reduces the value. If the photos/description failed to note this mutilation, then you are within your rights to request a refund. Neal
Neal- Yes you are correct. This is what the listing said: "Has a square lanyard loop and Shows some grinding marks on the back-strap no idea why, See Photo." Just wondering if this is enough to cover the seller? Also, the photo in my thread is from the auction listing.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
It is not illegal to remove an importer mark, or possess a gun that has had it removed.
EDIT: Yes, it looks like the seller made full disclosure. But, no worry, it is definitely legal.
Neal- Here is my home states law:
2012 Florida Statutes: This is from the 2012 Florida Statutes: Chapter 790
WEAPONS AND FIREARMS
790.27#8195;Alteration or removal of firearm serial number or possession, sale, or delivery of firearm with serial number altered or removed prohibited; penalties.-
(1)(a)#8195;It is unlawful for any person to knowingly alter or remove the manufacturer's or importer's serial number from a firearm with intent to disguise the true identity thereof.
(b)#8195;Any person violating paragraph (a) is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(2)(a)#8195;It is unlawful for any person to knowingly sell, deliver, or possess any firearm on which the manufacturer's or importer's serial number has been unlawfully altered or removed.
(b)#8195;Any person violating paragraph (a) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(3)#8195;This section shall not apply to antique firearms.
History.-s. 2, ch. 79-58; s. 179, ch. 91-224.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
A "shooter" P38, such as a post war gun, would sell for around $250; I would not expect to pay more than that for a mutilated wartime gun.
I think that's a little low for current pricing. A few years ago supplies of P1s (the more common designation for the post-war "P38" aluminum-frame pistol) were higher and that would have been the price, but supplies seem tighter now and prices are going higher.
As for paying $250 for a wartime P38 -- even a "mutilated" one -- that's way low.0 -
quote:Originally posted by competentone
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
A "shooter" P38, such as a post war gun, would sell for around $250; I would not expect to pay more than that for a mutilated wartime gun.
I think that's a little low for current pricing. A few years ago supplies of P1s (the more common designation for the post-war "P38" aluminum-frame pistol) were higher and that would have been the price, but supplies seem tighter now and prices are going higher.
As for paying $250 for a wartime P38 -- even a "mutilated" one -- that's way low.
competentone- That's good to hear as the seller did disclose in the description/photo the damage to the gun. I will still try to get the seller to cancel the sale as the payment has not even been delivered yet. However, if he does not agree, I will still have a less valuable piece of history that I will be proud to own.0
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