Lehigh Bullet Question
Please note - I?m not interested in a discussion of calibers for bear but rather in bullet performance regardless of caliber.
Not long ago, I had a couple of close encounters with black bears that started me thinking about my choice of bullets in my field carry load. I had been using Gold Dots in my .357 Sig. I was concerned that Gold Dot bullets might not give me the penetration I would need if I had to shoot a bear.
I did a bit of research and discovered the solid copper bullets made by Lehigh Defense. These bullets use what Lehigh calls fluid transfer technology. I was impressed by various ballistic gel testing videos of Lehigh?s Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets. In gel, the Lehigh bullets penetrated deeper and disrupted more gel material along the way than any of the other bullets tested in comparison including Gold Dot and HST bullets.
Some folks argue that these gel tests do not duplicate animal tissue and are therefore unreliable. That?s possible but looking at the gel strictly as a test medium, the Lehigh bullets outperformed everything else in the same medium. That has to count for something.
Others, having tested these Lehigh bullets by shooting them into a hunk of butchered meat, argue that their results are nothing like the gel tests and are more consistent with shooting a hunk of meat with FMJ bullets. Their reasoning is that muscle is more elastic than ballistic gel.
Still others maintain that live tissue and organs exhibit more fluid characteristics than butchered meat and say therefore the gel tests are nonetheless somewhat valid.
So, I bought some of the Lehigh XP and XD bullets and loaded some test rounds. Accuracy is good but I?m curious about performance. I?m thinking that in worst case they should be at least as effective as a hard cast SWC on a large animal.
My question is, has anyone actually used these Lehigh bullets on a live animal? What were your thoughts?
Not long ago, I had a couple of close encounters with black bears that started me thinking about my choice of bullets in my field carry load. I had been using Gold Dots in my .357 Sig. I was concerned that Gold Dot bullets might not give me the penetration I would need if I had to shoot a bear.
I did a bit of research and discovered the solid copper bullets made by Lehigh Defense. These bullets use what Lehigh calls fluid transfer technology. I was impressed by various ballistic gel testing videos of Lehigh?s Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets. In gel, the Lehigh bullets penetrated deeper and disrupted more gel material along the way than any of the other bullets tested in comparison including Gold Dot and HST bullets.
Some folks argue that these gel tests do not duplicate animal tissue and are therefore unreliable. That?s possible but looking at the gel strictly as a test medium, the Lehigh bullets outperformed everything else in the same medium. That has to count for something.
Others, having tested these Lehigh bullets by shooting them into a hunk of butchered meat, argue that their results are nothing like the gel tests and are more consistent with shooting a hunk of meat with FMJ bullets. Their reasoning is that muscle is more elastic than ballistic gel.
Still others maintain that live tissue and organs exhibit more fluid characteristics than butchered meat and say therefore the gel tests are nonetheless somewhat valid.
So, I bought some of the Lehigh XP and XD bullets and loaded some test rounds. Accuracy is good but I?m curious about performance. I?m thinking that in worst case they should be at least as effective as a hard cast SWC on a large animal.
My question is, has anyone actually used these Lehigh bullets on a live animal? What were your thoughts?
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Shot a lot of game with cast bullets. Only shot one black bear 350# class - he ran 40 yards with no heart/lungs before I could shoot him again in the same spot from the other side. I could stick my fist threw the exit holes in the ribs and could have put my arm threw him. 7mm Rem Mag 175 hr Hornady RN at about 100 yards.
The next day we took his head to the landfill. His scull turned turned 3 hard cast 245 gr bullets loaded full tilt out of a Ruger Super Blackhawk, before the 4th made it to the brains at about 30 yards.0 -
Bottom Gun,
As with most topics regarding firearms and ammunition choices, everyone has a slightly different opinion and wants you to agree with theirs. It's hard to find a broad selection of folks who have used one particular bullet when we have such a huge selection to choose from, especially when it come to the more expensive, specialty bullets such as Lehigh Defense. I think the best information comes from saying to avoid head shots completely as bullets rarely penetrate the design of a bear's skull.
Here is the bullet you are discussing:
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/handgun+355-357-sig
Here are two quotes from authors speaking to the use of JSP and Hardcast bullets:
Wayne Bosowicz carried a .357 Magnum Colt Python for years. Then he encountered a situation in which a charged-up bear came down from a tree and tore into his hounds and soaked up an entire cylinder full of 158-grain bullets in its chest without slowing down. Bosowicz immediately changed over to a Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Magnum, which has never failed to stop a bear.
Bullet selection is probably more important than anything, in fact. A black bear is tough-muscled with thick fur, hide and fat layers. You need a bullet that will penetrate through all that, and most hollowpoints used for .41-, .44- and .45-caliber commercial cartridges and handloads aren?t good choices. Bosowicz uses commercial Remington 210-grain JSP softnose loads in his .41 Magnum, and recommends any similarly structured loads. In .44 Magnum a 240-grain JSP, or a 220-grain (or heavier) silhouette-style bullet like Federal loads commercially, or Sierra and other bullet-makers offer as components, would be a good choice.
A jacketed softpoint powered for complete penetration through an average size bear is probably a better choice than a hard-cast SWC solid. The JSP will deform when penetrating, create a larger disruption channel, and if it goes all the way through, will leave a larger exit wound than will a hard, non-deforming cast bullet. If cast bullets are to be used, a medium-hard alloy with good deformation potential is a better selection.
And:
Here is from Buffalo Bore ammo that states it best...
Hard Cast is designed for super deep penetration on large game. The big flat nose keeps the bullet penetrating straight and thus deep. You can expect a good three + feet of penetration. The flat nose also does considerably more damage than a round nosed type of bullet as the flat nose cuts and smashes it way through living matter, while round nosed bullets tend to slip and slide through matter, doing much less damage along the bullet's path and achieving more shallow penetration due to getting sideways while slipping and sliding through matter.
The only bear hunting I have done was from tree stands using a Super Blackhawk in .44 Rem. Magnum. We reloaded using 240 gr. JSP for best penetration. The bears were clawing at bait above their head so the front legs were extended and a heart shot was a simple means of ending the hunt. This is not the situation you're referring to unfortunately. Encountering a bear while out in the woods is a completely different scenario and one that is the most dangerous since the bear could turn and start hunting you. In addition, you do not have a choice of shot presentation, you get what the bear presents unless he show a lack of interest and leaves the scene. Fast, accurate shot placement and use every cartridge in the firearms.
Best.0 -
IMHO
The 357 Sig is a poor choice for bear defense. Too much velocity at close range to expect dependable penetration from expanding bullets. If the solid copper bullets purport to provide better penetration, use them.
When I walked amongst bears, I carried a 44 with hard cast 245 grain bullets with a wide, flat meplat.
Take this for what it's worth since I've never shot a charging bear, never shot a bear in the head, and never shot a bear with a handgun.0 -
I appreciate your responses and all the good information guys, That?s very helpful.
I realize there are more powerful calibers than the .357 Sig but the .357 Sig is what I carry. I normally carry a P229. It?s a compact package with a lot of firepower. I will, on occasion, carry my P239 or P226, all in .357 Sig.
I used to carry a .44 (S&W 629) and still carry a .45 (1911) on occasion but these days the .357 Sig has become my general carry round. I just turned 70 and find this round suits me better now. I could carry my model 28 but chose my P229 because of its capacity and ease of carry.
Some folks dismiss the .357 Sig round as inadequate or under powered simply because it is slightly slower than the .357 Magnum and won?t handle heavy bullets as well. Well that?s true but I?m still impressed with the reliability and performance of the Sig round. I?ve been using handguns for nearly half a century and have used a number of different calibers. I find this round to be a very efficient cartridge.
I had been carrying Gold Dots until several close encounters with one of the local black bears caused me to question whether or not hollow points made sense in a field carry load in case I had to use it on a bear. So, I discovered the Lehigh Defense monolithic copper bullets and started using them.
I realize there are different opinions of these Lehigh bullets but I figured they should at least work as well as a solid or cast bullet and possibly better. The online ballistic gel videos of these bullets are quite impressive.
I haven?t figured out a good way to test the performance of these Lehigh bullets yet. That?s why I was asking if anyone had actually used any in a hunting situation.
Meanwhile, I will continue to carry Lehigh bullets.0 -
I have carried the Sigs you list for duty since the mid-90's and chose them because of the combination of factors that made them, to me, a good choice for fighting a PERSON. This is what they were designed around based on the the Evan Marshall studies that gave high stopping grades to the .357 mag 125 grain JHP in the 2 1/2" and 4" barrels most common in police work. Hornady does make a 147 grain XTP load for the .357 Sig. It is speced at 1100+ fps depending on barrel length. That being the case you could load a 145 - 150 grain hardcast that will feed 100% in your pistols to duplicate the Hornady load and give deeper penetration. As has been stated, the blackie is a much tougher target than any person so you need to factor that into your decision.
Note: Just checked on the auction side of GB and see that Missouri bullet offers a truncated cone 140 grain .357 cast in two hardness levels (I would go with the harder one) that may be worth looking at. The Hodgdon site lists a load of 9.0 grains of 800X as giving 1317 fps with a 148 grain bullet. That should give pretty good penetration with a solid.0 -
Go get a few hogs and try your "ballistic" tests. I don't think much about a fast 9mm on a bear. But if that's all you got then, that's what you got to work with. Best hope that 9mm will penetrate then tumble and for good measure ricochet off the ribs like a bumble bee on meth. 0
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