Wild fight and shoot out
This was in PA
2 state cops against one crazy mofo.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6045583/Prosecutors-release-video-harrowing-roadside-shootout.html
The video is wild.
2 state cops against one crazy mofo.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6045583/Prosecutors-release-video-harrowing-roadside-shootout.html
The video is wild.
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...?stuff? happens in the blink of an eye...as you know all too well. Ya never know when/where. Gotta keep yer skill sets sharp. 0 -
looks more like crack too me. The Sig227 sure does hold a lot of lead. 0 -
Really wild. I wonder if it's not better to bring the old blackjack back to deal with this sort of situation? 0 -
Now that just ruined everyones day. 0 -
Wow! 0 -
From Bad to worse 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Really wild. I wonder if it's not better to bring the old blackjack back to deal with this sort of situation?
I was thinking the same thing or at least one of those expanding batons.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sam06
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Really wild. I wonder if it's not better to bring the old blackjack back to deal with this sort of situation?
I was thinking the same thing or at least one of those expanding batons.
It's bound to better than being tazzed, beaten, shot and humiliated, plus giving law enforcement a thug image. A losing situation all the way around.0 -
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
Plus that. Why don't they use the blackjack anymore?0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
It was a close thing for one of them. Femoral artery hit is no joke I have seen 2 guys bleed out from that.0 -
It appears that the PA state police need a LOT of arrest control training!! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by truthful
It appears that the PA state police need a LOT of arrest control training!!
And some grappling training for ground work.
A hand held stunner would have worked well in that situation.
But its hard to armchair quarterback in that kind of situation.
It just shows you have a drunk stop with a goofy idiot can get ugly fast.
Also it would have been nice to have one of the officers stay back with a rifle. He could have aced the perp when came out of the vic with a gun.
Did you notice the trucker who stopped? It looked like he was going to either help or at least block the road.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sam06
Also it would have been nice to have one of the officers stay back with a rifle. He could have aced the perp when came out of the vic with a gun.that's what I was thinking. with a shotgun. but, it wasn't a felony stop so how were they supposed to know.0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Sam06
Also it would have been nice to have one of the officers stay back with a rifle. He could have aced the perp when came out of the vic with a gun.that's what I was thinking. with a shotgun. but, it wasn't a felony stop so how were they supposed to know.
Yep and that big Cop with some training in Brazilian Jujitsu or Krav Maga could have made that punk whine like a little bitch and ask to get the cuff put on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
Plus that. Why don't they use the blackjack anymore?
For the same reason we don't carry D cell mag lights anymore as impact weapons, and aren't allowed to hit people in the head with them. Wrapping someone in the head with a black jack today would likely be considered deadly force. Deadly force wasn't justified until the point he came out of the car with the gun, and by then there was distance and the black jack or sap would be useless.0 -
Shilow do yall train to fight especially on the ground? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
Plus that. Why don't they use the blackjack anymore?
For the same reason we don't carry D cell mag lights anymore as impact weapons, and aren't allowed to hit people in the head with them. Wrapping someone in the head with a black jack today would likely be considered deadly force. Deadly force wasn't justified until the point he came out of the car with the gun, and by then there was distance and the black jack or sap would be useless.
That makes sense, but it might have sav d them from having to beat him, prior to that, right? There have probably been a lot of people beaten to death and also tazzed to death, right?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sam06
Shilow do yall train to fight especially on the ground?
In basic police academy yes. But there isn't much if any maintenance training after what you have in the academy, unless you do it on your own. Would it be wise, yes but you run into OT budget issues with scheduling training. It's difficult enough getting range time scheduled every six months.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
Plus that. Why don't they use the blackjack anymore?
For the same reason we don't carry D cell mag lights anymore as impact weapons, and aren't allowed to hit people in the head with them. Wrapping someone in the head with a black jack today would likely be considered deadly force. Deadly force wasn't justified until the point he came out of the car with the gun, and by then there was distance and the black jack or sap would be useless.
That makes sense, but it might have sav d them from having to beat him, prior to that, right? There have probably been a lot of people beaten to death and also tazzed to death, right?
Beaten to death? No, highly rare and likely unintentional and I am not aware that TASER has ever successfully been found responsible for a death. TASERs have been listed as a contributing factor, but so is physical struggle with police and those suspects typically had other serious health issues, including narcotics intoxication, heart disease, and may have been suffering excited dilerium. The other important thing to consider is that TASERs are used to incapacitate an individual, not kill them. The intended use is not deadly force. Hitting someone in the head with a lead, spring loaded "baton" would likely from the beginning be considered deadly force.0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
Plus that. Why don't they use the blackjack anymore?
For the same reason we don't carry D cell mag lights anymore as impact weapons, and aren't allowed to hit people in the head with them. Wrapping someone in the head with a black jack today would likely be considered deadly force. Deadly force wasn't justified until the point he came out of the car with the gun, and by then there was distance and the black jack or sap would be useless.
That makes sense, but it might have sav d them from having to beat him, prior to that, right? There have probably been a lot of people beaten to death and also tazzed to death, right?
Beaten to death? No, highly rare and likely unintentional and I am not aware that TASER has ever successfully been found responsible for a death. TASERs have been listed as a contributing factor, but so is physical struggle with police and those suspects typically had other serious health issues, including narcotics intoxication, heart disease, and may have been suffering excited dilerium. The other important thing to consider is that TASERs are used to incapacitate an individual, not kill them. The intended use is not deadly force. Hitting someone in the head with a lead, spring loaded "baton" would likely from the beginning be considered deadly force.
Thanks for your point of view, Shilo.0 -
my grandfather was a cop and police detective from the 1940's to 1970's. my father and I inherited his equipment. belts, holsters, bandoliers/speed loaders for .38, handcuffs, come-alongs (big metal pincers to grab the wrist with), nightsticks, blackjacks and saps/slappers.
so I got to examine all that stuff.
a blackjack is a 3/4" lead ball on the end of a spring all wrapped in leather. if you knock someone on the head lightly it's going to hurt. a moderate mount of force might crack their skull, and if you really whack them full force you are definitely going to put a hole in their skull and probably kill them.
but it's quite obvious that when you hit anywhere else on the torso/arms/legs it's going to hurt like hell so that must have been the intended use. I don't see a problem using a blackjack as long as it isn't struck on the head.
on the other hand it doesn't compare favorably to a nightstick which isn't so vicious, has longer reach and can also be used for joint manipulation. and nowadays cops have OC spray and tazers so why bother. for the beat cop anyways; it still has a use for plainclothes cops and detectives.
the slappers were powdered lead encased in leather and shaped like a small paddle. probably used the same way as blackjacks but more likely used on the head. if blackjacks are obsolete those would become obsolete too.
on a side note blackjacks are illegal for civilians to carry but I don't understand why, since we have the right to bear arms and they are an awesome amount of not-so-lethal force that fits in the pocket.0 -
Reminds me of a police shooting I witnessed back in 1969 when I was just 14. Some friends & I lived on the South East side of Houston Texas near Hobby Airport. One night some friends & I had heard a lot of sirens going off, and what sounded like emergency vehicles speeding through our neighborhood.
During all this we had left one friends house in a car to take another friend home. Just as we pulled into his driveway a blue Datsun came flying up the street with a couple of Houston Police patrol cars right behind it. At the same time another HPD car came hauling down the street at a head on direction right at the Datsun. Just as they got right in front of my friends house the Datsun came to a screeching halt.
The drivers side door came flying open, and some naked long haired hippie looking white dude jumped out and started popping caps at the patrol vehicle that had stopped in front of him blocking his path. It looked like he had a small little nickel plated Saturday night special, maybe a .22, or .25 caliber, because it sounded like a cap gun compared to the Police Officer?s 357 Magnums that they started pumping into him.
I swear the Police must have fired their hand guns about 36 times, because all six Officers involved reloaded after it was over. The Hippie dude stood his ground for a fairly long time till some wounds finally caused him to collapse. I?m surprised the Officers didn?t hit each other, or anyone else, because they were in a crossfire with two officers shooting at him, while four on the other side were shooting at him. And, we were probably just 35? away standing in the driveway directly to the side of the incident. We had a front row view of the entire thing. I still recall hearing the rounds zinging off the concrete street in a ricochet.
You would have thought the Police would have spoken to us, or even took our names down, put they ignored us completely even after their Supervisor & some Detectives arrived on the scene. They also just let they bad guy lay there on the road way, withering in pain & just bleeding out. A neighbor came out of a nearby house after a while & told them, that if they didn?t call an ambulance that he would. I recall him saying, ?how do you think this looks to these kids to just let him lay there & not give him any medical attention?? They then seemed to take notice of how things looked, and got an ambulance to the scene.
My Mother read in the paper a few days later that the guys was stil alive in the hospital, and that he had been a reported burglar who was caught in the act, and had fled from the Police.
I think the perp was hopped up on drugs, and the Police were hopped up on their Adrenalin, because afterwards they were all talking real fast like they were excited, and couldn?t shut up.
None of the Police were wounded, but I recall them pointing out to the Detectives were a bullet had dented the Crome trim around the windshield of one of their Patrol cars. I always wondered if it was put there by a Police Officer?s stray shot?
Trinity +++0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
my grandfather was a cop and police detective from the 1940's to 1970's. my father and I inherited his equipment. belts, holsters, bandoliers/speed loaders for .38, handcuffs, come-alongs (big metal pincers to grab the wrist with), nightsticks, blackjacks and saps/slappers.
so I got to examine all that stuff.
a blackjack is a 3/4" lead ball on the end of a spring all wrapped in leather. if you knock someone on the head lightly it's going to hurt. a moderate mount of force might crack their skull, and if you really whack them full force you are definitely going to put a hole in their skull and probably kill them.
but it's quite obvious that when you hit anywhere else on the torso/arms/legs it's going to hurt like hell so that must have been the intended use. I don't see a problem using a blackjack as long as it isn't struck on the head.
on the other hand it doesn't compare favorably to a nightstick which isn't so vicious, has longer reach and can also be used for joint manipulation. and nowadays cops have OC spray and tazers so why bother. for the beat cop anyways; it still has a use for plainclothes cops and detectives.
the slappers were powdered lead encased in leather and shaped like a small paddle. probably used the same way as blackjacks but more likely used on the head. if blackjacks are obsolete those would become obsolete too.
on a side note blackjacks are illegal for civilians to carry but I don't understand why, since we have the right to bear arms and they are an awesome amount of not-so-lethal force that fits in the pocket.
Thank you for clarifying the difference between blackjacks and saps, since I was thinking about saps when I mentioned blackjack.0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I'm glad the Troopers survived, and the bad guy will spend a good portion of his life behind bars.
Plus that. Why don't they use the blackjack anymore?
For the same reason we don't carry D cell mag lights anymore as impact weapons, and aren't allowed to hit people in the head with them. Wrapping someone in the head with a black jack today would likely be considered deadly force. Deadly force wasn't justified until the point he came out of the car with the gun, and by then there was distance and the black jack or sap would be useless.
Just my opinion and nothing else. We need to change the procedure so that deadly force is authorized once a person resists arrest to the extent this guy did.
After he had two officers on the ground there is no doubt in my mind he intended to do harm to the officers.
I do agree that the Baton should be used more often. We were trained in the service to only use it on legs, arms and torso never the head. Once he pulled away from the officers at the car they should have been authorized to use a Baton or once the Taser did not subdue him.
What I find to be the hardest part is the Trooper who had to stand watch to make sure they did not get run over. If he had been next to the guy it might have ended differently.
I am not in favor of cameras for traffic control but in these cases a camera should be recoding plates of every vehicle that does not pull over to left lane and they should be hit with big fine.
We had one Trooper killed last year by a driver that did not pull over and this year have already had four get hit in their car.0
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