Gangs need better bullets?
I was watching Cops the last few nights. Every night they show about two scenes of groups of people having a shootout and several wounds are shown. There is a small, marble-sized entry and small exit. They must be shooting some cheap-ass ammo.
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It is always surprising to see new EMTs at their first shooting victim when a handgun is used. They always expect to see a large entry wound and massive exit wound (if through and through), but that is not usually the case.
Most people are shooting less expensive ammo and that means FMJ for the most part. Those tend to make an entry wound that is the diameter or slightly larger of the projectile (depending upon what materials it had to traverse to enter) and usually only slightly larger exit wound than the entry.
Now if you start talking self defense rounds, that is totally different. They expand upon impact and most time do not exit, but can make a larger entry wound.0 -
Expansion of bullets is overrated in my book. Military bullets are FMJ and they do just fine even with extremity hits at long distances. If you poke a marble sized hole through a deer's lungs the deer dies. They are not much different than a man in size or weight.
Damage from a bullet no matter how small can be quickly fatal. Hit parts of the heart or lungs and there is a good chance the one shot will expire.
I shoot a deer with a 45-70 using bullets that show almost zero expansion, many going between ribs. They do not go more than 80-100 yards before piling up. Ghetto rats and gang-bangers are no different.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost
Expansion of bullets is overrated in my book. Military bullets are FMJ and they do just fine even with extremity hits at long distances. If you poke a marble sized hole through a deer's lungs the deer dies. They are not much different than a man in size or weight.
Damage from a bullet no matter how small can be quickly fatal. Hit parts of the heart or lungs and there is a good chance the one shot will expire.
I shoot a deer with a 45-70 using bullets that show almost zero expansion, many going between ribs. They do not go more than 80-100 yards before piling up. Ghetto rats and gang-bangers are no different.
Please explain how this translates to shooting deer with a 9mm pistol. Thanks in advance.0 -
I have to disagree on the effectiveness of military FMJ. I don't want to have to keep shooting the son of a bachelor. And I don't give a damn if he dies in an hour from a round thru his lungs- I am more concerned about the next 2-3 minutes.
and yes, I have used it. Which is why we preferred 45 over 9mm, and 7.62 NATO over 5.56.0 -
Small caliber out of a short barrel just doesn?t have any energy. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by bpost
Expansion of bullets is overrated in my book. Military bullets are FMJ and they do just fine even with extremity hits at long distances. If you poke a marble sized hole through a deer's lungs the deer dies. They are not much different than a man in size or weight.
Damage from a bullet no matter how small can be quickly fatal. Hit parts of the heart or lungs and there is a good chance the one shot will expire.
I shoot a deer with a 45-70 using bullets that show almost zero expansion, many going between ribs. They do not go more than 80-100 yards before piling up. Ghetto rats and gang-bangers are no different.
Please explain how this translates to shooting deer with a 9mm pistol. Thanks in advance.
Okay, I will give it a shot, pun intended. If you shoot a deer broadside through the chest, just behind the shoulder blade(s) at say 10 yards with a 9mm FMJ it will kill the deer by hitting both lungs and vital heart parts or plumbing. You can't live when your heart is pumping out all of your blood into the chest cavity.
Of the 70 or so big game animals I have harvested 95% were hit with the shot described above. Everything from moose and caribou to the white tail deer have died quickly from lung/heart/plumbing hits above the diaphragm. There is little/zero expansion of bullets in lung tissue. If the bullet hits between ribs there is a very small hole, if perchance a rib is hit the hole is still only quarter sized.
A lowly lead round ball of 36-45 caliber has claimed many deer and men.
Death results from hitting areas vital to life, not the hole size.0 -
Shooting deer and self defense shooting are apples and oranges. The difference is shot placement, and just getting a hit on your target. Getting a hit on target means any strike must do maximum damage. That means expansion. 0 -
Full metal jacket ammo is not meant to kill in a war situation... It's meant to take the person out of the fightt without killing him, so it will also take his buddy out of the fight helping the person you shot.that way you're taking two people out of the fight instead of just one... That's the purpose of full metal jacket ammo. It's not meant to kill, it's meant to take two people out of the battle 0 -
Theoretically, if two targets align themselves, a FMJ projectile May pass through the first and penetrate the second.
Providing, of course, you hold your Nine sideways and and shout ?Take that, bitches!?0 -
quote:They must be shooting some cheap-ass ammo.
Good! I am not.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
Full metal jacket ammo is not meant to kill in a war situation... It's meant to take the person out of the fightt without killing him, so it will also take his buddy out of the fight helping the person you shot.that way you're taking two people out of the fight instead of just one... That's the purpose of full metal jacket ammo. It's not meant to kill, it's meant to take two people out of the battle
I'm afraid that's incorrect. There are many reasons, but mostly relating to fouling, storage and higher muzzle velocities. You have referenced a possible wives tale about the .556 ammo used in Vietnam whereas we were purportedly attempting to be humane while taking as many out of the battle as possible. I never bought into that. [;)]
I'm afraid that's incorrect, according to the laws of war as ratified by the Hague convention of 1899...
(IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations
This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned soft-point bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India).
Now mind you I know full metal jacket was invented before this convention to facilitate easier chambering a bullet by utilizing a hard outer jacket around a Lead bullet, also to alleviate lead fouling time to give better velocities. But the laws of war dictates that full metal jacket has to be used so that a bullet does less damage to a person.
The purpose of the .556 NATO instead of the 7.62 NATO was because the .556 NATO is a lot lighter than the 7.62 so that the infantry could carry more ammo into battle with it.
You see, you're not the only one that stayed in a Holiday inn once0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
I guess we'll disagree. [;)]
Agreed, you believe what you want, and I'll believe the declaration of the laws of war why they must be used.[;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by bpost
Expansion of bullets is overrated in my book. Military bullets are FMJ and they do just fine even with extremity hits at long distances. If you poke a marble sized hole through a deer's lungs the deer dies. They are not much different than a man in size or weight.
Damage from a bullet no matter how small can be quickly fatal. Hit parts of the heart or lungs and there is a good chance the one shot will expire.
I shoot a deer with a 45-70 using bullets that show almost zero expansion, many going between ribs. They do not go more than 80-100 yards before piling up. Ghetto rats and gang-bangers are no different.
Please explain how this translates to shooting deer with a 9mm pistol. Thanks in advance.
Okay, I will give it a shot, pun intended. If you shoot a deer broadside through the chest, just behind the shoulder blade(s) at say 10 yards with a 9mm FMJ it will kill the deer by hitting both lungs and vital heart parts or plumbing. You can't live when your heart is pumping out all of your blood into the chest cavity.
Of the 70 or so big game animals I have harvested 95% were hit with the shot described above. Everything from moose and caribou to the white tail deer have died quickly from lung/heart/plumbing hits above the diaphragm. There is little/zero expansion of bullets in lung tissue. If the bullet hits between ribs there is a very small hole, if perchance a rib is hit the hole is still only quarter sized.
A lowly lead round ball of 36-45 caliber has claimed many deer and men.
Death results from hitting areas vital to life, not the hole size.
Bruce, the terminal ballistics of a rifle round through flesh is so vastly different from any pistol round, there can be no comparison to the destructive effects. If the pistol round does contact the vital organs yes the subject is going to die. That wasn't even what the OP was talking about though. And probably the best evidence I can think of to demonstrate how silly it is to discuss pistol rounds in such a comparison is to look at how long and how far deer run after being shot with a bow. And statements like the one you make about 36-45 cal round ball used in deer hunting has no bearing because again they're being shot from a rifle.0 -
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
Full metal jacket ammo is not meant to kill in a war situation... It's meant to take the person out of the fightt without killing him, so it will also take his buddy out of the fight helping the person you shot.that way you're taking two people out of the fight instead of just one... That's the purpose of full metal jacket ammo. It's not meant to kill, it's meant to take two people out of the battle
I'm afraid that's incorrect. There are many reasons, but mostly relating to fouling, storage and higher muzzle velocities. You have referenced a possible wives tale about the .556 ammo used in Vietnam whereas we were purportedly attempting to be humane while taking as many out of the battle as possible. I never bought into that. [;)]
I'm afraid that's incorrect, according to the laws of war as ratified by the Hague convention of 1899...
(IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations
This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned soft-point bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India).
Now mind you I know full metal jacket was invented before this convention to facilitate easier chambering a bullet by utilizing a hard outer jacket around a Lead bullet, also to alleviate lead fouling time to give better velocities. But the laws of war dictates that full metal jacket has to be used so that a bullet does less damage to a person.
The purpose of the .556 NATO instead of the 7.62 NATO was because the .556 NATO is a lot lighter than the 7.62 so that the infantry could carry more ammo into battle with it.
You see, you're not the only one that stayed in a Holiday inn once
Read yrs ago that Germany is the one who complained the .303 ammo was causing too much damage to the soldiers. Hence the Hague convention.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by bpost
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by bpost
Expansion of bullets is overrated in my book. Military bullets are FMJ and they do just fine even with extremity hits at long distances. If you poke a marble sized hole through a deer's lungs the deer dies. They are not much different than a man in size or weight.
Damage from a bullet no matter how small can be quickly fatal. Hit parts of the heart or lungs and there is a good chance the one shot will expire.
I shoot a deer with a 45-70 using bullets that show almost zero expansion, many going between ribs. They do not go more than 80-100 yards before piling up. Ghetto rats and gang-bangers are no different.
Please explain how this translates to shooting deer with a 9mm pistol. Thanks in advance.
Okay, I will give it a shot, pun intended. If you shoot a deer broadside through the chest, just behind the shoulder blade(s) at say 10 yards with a 9mm FMJ it will kill the deer by hitting both lungs and vital heart parts or plumbing. You can't live when your heart is pumping out all of your blood into the chest cavity.
Of the 70 or so big game animals I have harvested 95% were hit with the shot described above. Everything from moose and caribou to the white tail deer have died quickly from lung/heart/plumbing hits above the diaphragm. There is little/zero expansion of bullets in lung tissue. If the bullet hits between ribs there is a very small hole, if perchance a rib is hit the hole is still only quarter sized.
A lowly lead round ball of 36-45 caliber has claimed many deer and men.
Death results from hitting areas vital to life, not the hole size.
Bruce, the terminal ballistics of a rifle round through flesh is so vastly different from any pistol round, there can be no comparison to the destructive effects. If the pistol round does contact the vital organs yes the subject is going to die. That wasn't even what the OP was talking about though. And probably the best evidence I can think of to demonstrate how silly it is to discuss pistol rounds in such a comparison is to look at how long and how far deer run after being shot with a bow. And statements like the one you make about 36-45 cal round ball used in deer hunting has no bearing because again they're being shot from a rifle.
Righto, if you are talking about defensive shooting then a Speer Gold Dot or untold others is the way to go. If forced into that scenario I want the projectiles to expand violently and STOP in the target to avoid over penetration and the chance of hitting a bystander. Ghetto rats don't seem to care about bystanders they care about fields of fire almost like a beaten area with machine guns in military battles.
When studied it amazing how lethal the 22LR is when hitting a human target. It tears up important things, causing death with the hole of entry sometimes hard to find and a long way from the bullets final stopping location.0 -
has anyone heard of someone being shot with the 22lr Quik Shok, now being the Browning BPR 22lr 37gr fragmenting bullet....breaks into 3 pieces and flies around ???? 0 -
Cheap 22lr semi-auto pistol is bangers choice here. Punish whores and dealers on wrong corner. 0
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