Bump Stock announcement
90 days to destroy or turn them in...
https://www.turnto23.com/news/national/trump-to-announce-federal-ban-on-bump-stocks-soon-report-says
https://www.turnto23.com/news/national/trump-to-announce-federal-ban-on-bump-stocks-soon-report-says
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I feel so much safer, since this is such a good idea now they need to just outlaw outlaws!
Make all the gangsta wanna be's turn in their weapons and no more crime.
Outlaw Cell phones they cause all kinds of traffic issues and deaths.
Actually a quote from the article says that the devices allow a person to fire multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger, that isn't true if I understand the device correctly you are still pulling the trigger each shot.0 -
A logical extension of the 1934 NFA and Reagan's 1986 FOPA.
Both laws thwart the 2nd Amendment and should be struck down.
Fact is that the use of bump-stocks probably resulted in fewer deaths in Las Vegas, as a large number of the rounds went high as evidenced by the fuel storage tanks 1,000s of feet away being struck by errant rounds.
A political move by Trump's DOJ that reveals his view of the 2nd Amendment.
Just another 'I support the 2nd Amendment, but...'
If bump-stocks make an individual more effective in the defense of self or country, this ruling is obviously in conflict with the 2nd Amendment.
If bump-stocks do not make an individual more effective in the defense of self or country, this ruling is political theater.
Even if you do not own a bump-stock, you have a dog in this fight, as it is an expansion of exiting law through bureaucratic manipulation of language.
What ever happened to 'remove 2 regulations for every one implemented'?
I guess the 'when expedient' was implied.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
A logical extension of the 1934 NFA and Reagan's 1986 FOPA.
Both laws thwart the 2nd Amendment and should be struck down.
Fact is that the use of bump-stocks probably resulted in fewer deaths in Las Vegas, as a large number of the rounds went high as evidenced by the fuel storage tanks 1,000s of feet away being struck by errant rounds.
A political move by Trumps DOJ that reveals his view of the 2nd Amendment.
Just another 'I support the 2nd Amendment, but...'
If bump-stocks make an individual more effective in the defense of self or country, this ruling is obviously in conflict with the 2nd Amendment.
If bump-stocks to not make an individual more effective in the defense of self or country, this ruling is political theater.
Even if you do not own a bump-stock, you have a dog in this fight, as it is an expansion of exiting law through bureaucratic manipulation of language.
What ever happened to remove 2 regulations for every one implemented?
I guess the 'when expedient' was implied.
I remember hearing early on that he was trying to hit those tanks, not errant rounds. [;)]
We heard a lot of things early on, GG, but IMO, a logical evaluation is that the shots were high. It is much more sensational to project this dirt-wad as a super-terrorist who tried to immolate the entire city by setting fire to a fuel depot.
It is bit more frightening to most (and much closer to reality) that what he did was something almost anyone could do.
I do not believe he targeted the tanks. Had that been his intent, he would have used readily available API rounds out of a .308 platform. As he appears to have been using non-explosive rounds, the most logical answer is that he was shooting high.
To carry this hijack a step further, have you noticed that we see statistics of 500+ injured in the attack, though there is not a public accounting of how many were hit by rifle fire and how many were injured in the exodus?
The anti-bump stock/anti gun agenda is well served with a high casualty count, but will be less well served when it comes out the more than half were treated for stampede related injuries.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by mogley98
I feel so much safer, since this is such a good idea now they need to just outlaw outlaws!
Make all the gangsta wanna be's turn in their weapons and no more crime.
Outlaw Cell phones they cause all kinds of traffic issues and deaths.
Actually a quote from the article says that the devices allow a person to fire multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger, that isn't true if I understand the device correctly you are still pulling the trigger each shot.
Nope, just hold the trigger back. The cycling will occur from the recoil all by itself. A simple device that works quite well. After all the money spent on them, I wonder what the designer/manufacture thinks about it. "I got mine" would be my impression, especially knowing (from the first sale) all along they were going to be outlawed. [V]
There is more to it than that, you don?t simply pull the trigger and go full auto. It takes practice to get more than a 2 or 3 round burst, trigger control is everything and on a light recoiling rifle it is even more difficult. A bump stock contrary to popular belief does not turn a semi auto into a full auto killing machine, it just makes bump firing a little easier. Then you have the loss of accuracy because you give up some control of the rifle in order to bump fire by loosening your grip on the back and pulling forward on the front. It is a novelty meant to burn ammo just like the old HellFire trigger adapter that was sold years ago. You cannot keep 30 rounds on paper at 50 yards with bumpfiring, bumpstocks or a HellFire.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
I can tell you don't have one. They operate nothing like the Hell Fire pieces of crap. That's a simple trigger device that simply adds spring tension back to the trigger finger, it does in fact take practice to run properly. I can empty a 20 round mag in my Mini 14 without a hick-up. As to the bump stock I own, emptying a 30 round mag is effortless. Pull the trigger, float the stock in your shoulder and spray. My Colt SP1 runs about 200 rounds per minute faster with a Lightning Link. The only times I've seen them perform poorly was with reloaded ammo that was clearly inconsistent. [;)]
I have one and can make it run but I suppose now I have to place it in a turkey roasting pan and put it in the oven and melt it.
It is the same concept as the Hell Fire, on that the spring facilitated the forward motion where as the stock uses the shooter. And again, accuracy is toast compared to a true full auto which I have fired a few times (Ma Duece was more fun) and I found it easier to control the AK47 vs the M16 on full auto.0 -
Typical Government reaction,....just do 'something.'
This terrible event was caused by a sick mind, and not a SlideFire stock. Anyone that is fairly proficient with a firearm could have done the same thing out of an elevated hotel window sans said 'stock of madness.'
I have never owned one, but I am not in favor of this move at all.[xx(]0 -
I bought a slide fire when they first come out. Installed it on a Colt AR in 9mm. It ran great. Would chew up a 32 rd mag in seconds. I sold the whole contraption, knowing they wouldn't last long before some nutcase used one and the govt would step in.. That is an exact..I told you so. In my eyes they are a PART that alters the weapon to fire fast..faster than it intentionally was made by the factory. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
A logical extension of the 1934 NFA and Reagan's 1986 FOPA.
Both laws thwart the 2nd Amendment and should be struck down.
Fact is that the use of bump-stocks probably resulted in fewer deaths in Las Vegas, as a large number of the rounds went high as evidenced by the fuel storage tanks 1,000s of feet away being struck by errant rounds.
A political move by Trumps DOJ that reveals his view of the 2nd Amendment.
Just another 'I support the 2nd Amendment, but...'
If bump-stocks make an individual more effective in the defense of self or country, this ruling is obviously in conflict with the 2nd Amendment.
If bump-stocks to not make an individual more effective in the defense of self or country, this ruling is political theater.
Even if you do not own a bump-stock, you have a dog in this fight, as it is an expansion of exiting law through bureaucratic manipulation of language.
What ever happened to remove 2 regulations for every one implemented?
I guess the 'when expedient' was implied.
I remember hearing early on that he was trying to hit those tanks, not errant rounds. [;)]
We heard a lot of things early on, GG, but IMO, a logical evaluation is that the shots were high. It is much more sensational to project this dirt-wad as a super-terrorist who tried to immolate the entire city by setting fire to a fuel depot.
It is bit more frightening to most (and much closer to reality) that what he did was something almost anyone could do.
I do not believe he targeted the tanks. Had that been his intent, he would have used readily available API rounds out of a .308 platform. As he appears to have been using non-explosive rounds, the most logical answer is that he was shooting high.
To carry this hijack a step further, have you noticed that we see statistics of 500+ injured in the attack, though there is not a public accounting of how many were hit by rifle fire and how many were injured in the exodus?
The anti-bump stock/anti gun agenda is well served with a high casualty count, but will be less well served when it comes out the more than half were treated for stampede related injuries.
I don't think it's really fair to separate out the "in stampede" injuries in any case. There would have been no stampeding had it not been for gun fire.0 -
Mr. P and GreatGuns:
While I agree that in the big picture the cause of injury is not important, when the incident is being used to advance a specific gun control agenda, it becomes important.
Any reasonable person would agree that the rush to exit would have occurred regardless of whether a bump-stock or 60 round magazine was being used. The shooter had ample time to switch out magazines regardless of size, and ample time to pull a trigger as many times as he wanted.
The premise is that the bump-stock increased the number of casualties.
This may be true.
It may not be true, however, and I would think a full accounting of the injuries would shed some light on this.
If we accept the casualty count as being attributable to the device used, and then accept that the device can be banned for cause, we have accepted by extension the banning of belt-fed rifles and magazines of an arbitrary capacity limit for the same reason.
It is not semantics, GreatGuns. The injured and dead were caused by a nut using semi-auto firearms. Accessories included large capacity magazines, tripods/bipods, pistol grips, bump-fire stocks, and who knows what else.
Trump and company have picked the low hanging fruit in this case, but the beast is hungry, and will always want more. I am not a fan of feeding it even in this case, and believe that full disclosure is the best approach.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
Yea, I'm afraid injured is injured and dead is dead, still caused by a nut using the subject accessory. Semantics probably doesn't matter much. [;)]
Not to sound like a nutcase but I?m not impressed with his body count. Considering the ?snipers nest? he had and if he had just used the rifle as a standard semi taking his time the body count could have been much higher. I agree that his choice of ?accessories? saved lives.
Now imagine if he had walked into the crowd with a shotgun, how much damage could he have caused?
I?m sorry but to lay blame on an object, a tool is wrong. It doesn?t matter if you drive a truck into a crowd or shoot at them, the deer is the deed and should be handled as such. How long before Glocks and 30 round mags are banned because of the mental case in CA?
What pisses me off just like everyone else, the body count on our highways is much higher and preventable but all I see put here is a few signs asking folks to be carefull and no enforcement of many traffic laws. Is it lives that really matter or are lawmakers pandering for votes? Is Trump trying to kiss a little ass looking at 2020? Not one life will be saved by banning these stocks just as not one lofe will be saved with a roadsign asking you to put down your phone. It?s nothing but touchy feely bullcrap that does nothing to save lives.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
I'm not agreeing with the ban Don, only recognizing how it got to where it is now. Whereas unlike myself that paid into the government taxing owners of full auto weapons (I have several registered class 3's, each with a $200 tax stamp), the bump stocks have gained notoriety of being similar to what I have as registered high rate of fire weapons, but aren't. This is their attempt at addressing those that aren't. Had the government classified the bump stocks as a continuation of the Class 3 requirements, this would be a mute topic. Instead, I believe it's the first step of many to disarm American citizens and it will all be under Trumps watch and approval. [V]
At Trump's direction, however, the Justice Department submitted a proposed final rule earlier this year that upended the Obama-era interpretation, and concluded that bump-fire stocks, "slide-fire" devices, and devices with certain similar characteristics all fall within the prohibition on machine guns by allowing a "shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger," and therefore, they are illegal under federal law.
(From the link in the OP).
These are being deemed illegal because they were manufactured after 1986, I would guess. Because of Ronald Reagan's FOPA, they cannot be classified under a continuation of class 3 requirements. If the Trump definition of them causing a 'continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger' is upheld, they can never be legal, cannot be classified as Class 3 devices and must be destroyed.
(That is where semantics comes into play.)
Always find it confusing when folks tell me to vote GOP to save my gun rights.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
Without sounding paranoid,...........how long do you think it will be before collectors and Class 3 dealers with registered historic and rare FA firearms receive letters instructing them to relinquish or demill them? Oh, and I really hate this topic. [V]
As current ownership is protected, I would think that confiscation or demilling would not apply to current owners. No stretch to think, however, that any future sale of these items could be prohibited, which would effectively destroy their value. As many of these are owned by trusts, it is possible that there will be ways to get around this, but if Congresscritters get serious about it, that method of transfer could be easily blocked.
The bigger issue, IMO, is the precedent created by Reagan's FOPA that new manufacture of a complete class of firearms can be prohibited, and the precedent created by the NFA that a complete class of firearms can be absorbed under Federal Control.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Mr. P and GreatGuns:
While I agree that in the big picture the cause of injury is not important, when the incident is being used to advance a specific gun control agenda, it becomes important.
Any reasonable person would agree that the rush to exit would have occurred regardless of whether a bump-stock or 60 round magazine was being used. The shooter had ample time to switch out magazines regardless of size, and ample time to pull a trigger as many times as he wanted.
The premise is that the bump-stock increased the number of casualties.
This may be true.
It may not be true, however, and I would think a full accounting of the injuries would shed some light on this.
If we accept the casualty count as being attributable to the device used, and then accept that the device can be banned for cause, we have accepted by extension the banning of belt-fed rifles and magazines of an arbitrary capacity limit for the same reason.
It is not semantics, GreatGuns. The injured and dead were caused by a nut using semi-auto firearms. Accessories included large capacity magazines, tripods/bipods, pistol grips, bump-fire stocks, and who knows what else.
Trump and company have picked the low hanging fruit in this case, but the beast is hungry, and will always want more. I am not a fan of feeding it even in this case, and believe that full disclosure is the best approach.
Thanks for the clarification. I better understand your point and agree.0 -
Rahm Emanuel: Dems? Job Over Next Two Years Is to Divide Trump and His Base
Are there some "sleeper Dems" posting on GB?[:D]
https://www.breitbart.com/video/2018/11/29/emanuel-dems-job-over-next-two-years-is-to-divide-trump-and-his-base/0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
Without sounding paranoid,...........how long do you think it will be before collectors and Class 3 dealers with registered historic and rare FA firearms receive letters instructing them to relinquish or demill them? Oh, and I really hate this topic. [V]
As current ownership is protected, I would think that confiscation or demilling would not apply to current owners. No stretch to think, however, that any future sale of these items could be prohibited, which would effectively destroy their value. As many of these are owned by trusts, it is possible that there will be ways to get around this, but if Congresscritters get serious about it, that method of transfer could be easily blocked.
The bigger issue, IMO, is the precedent created by Reagan's FOPA that new manufacture of a complete class of firearms can be prohibited, and the precedent created by the NFA that a complete class of firearms can be absorbed under Federal Control.
Sure, that sounds reasonable.
Oh . . . wait -
From the article - "Under the new rule, bump stock owners would be required to destroy or surrender the devices to authorities. Members of the public will be given 90 days to turn in or otherwise discard their bump stocks, according to a source familiar with the final rule."0 -
quote:Originally posted by US Military Guy
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
Without sounding paranoid,...........how long do you think it will be before collectors and Class 3 dealers with registered historic and rare FA firearms receive letters instructing them to relinquish or demill them? Oh, and I really hate this topic. [V]
As current ownership is protected, I would think that confiscation or demilling would not apply to current owners. No stretch to think, however, that any future sale of these items could be prohibited, which would effectively destroy their value. As many of these are owned by trusts, it is possible that there will be ways to get around this, but if Congresscritters get serious about it, that method of transfer could be easily blocked.
The bigger issue, IMO, is the precedent created by Reagan's FOPA that new manufacture of a complete class of firearms can be prohibited, and the precedent created by the NFA that a complete class of firearms can be absorbed under Federal Control.
Sure, that sounds reasonable.
Oh . . . wait -
From the article - "Under the new rule, bump stock owners would be required to destroy or surrender the devices to authorities. Members of the public will be given 90 days to turn in or otherwise discard their bump stocks, according to a source familiar with the final rule."
They are talking about FA firearms,...not bump stocks.0 -
In my way of thinking many gun owners are getting exactly what they are putting in for effort. A lousy $35 a year or less to join the NRA. There should be 30 or 40 million members but the rest are to damn cheap to help. If you don't belong to some national gun rights organization you will have nothing to bitch about when they come for your guns. Who is working to get the right people elected ? Leaving that effort to your neighbor as well ?
IF your like the majority of gun owners your complacency, your lack of funding, your lack of effort is going to loose all of is the 2nd amendment and fire arm rights. For those who don't put up, you should just shut up.
Trump isn't going to do it all, and neither am I. I can only do so much , then I have to buy my groceries and pay my rent and other bills. My letters and e-mails likely hit the trash as fast as the politicians get them in the mail room that they have never been to.
Yes - I'm talking about you Barz ! (I'm pretty sure your not a NRA member) If you don't care for the 2nd amendment then you don't care for any of them.
If your all pro gun talk and no action , then you will get the government someone else wants. Good luck with that because it is on its way.0 -
quote:Originally posted by US Military Guy
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
Without sounding paranoid,...........how long do you think it will be before collectors and Class 3 dealers with registered historic and rare FA firearms receive letters instructing them to relinquish or demill them? Oh, and I really hate this topic. [V]
As current ownership is protected, I would think that confiscation or demilling would not apply to current owners. No stretch to think, however, that any future sale of these items could be prohibited, which would effectively destroy their value. As many of these are owned by trusts, it is possible that there will be ways to get around this, but if Congresscritters get serious about it, that method of transfer could be easily blocked.
The bigger issue, IMO, is the precedent created by Reagan's FOPA that new manufacture of a complete class of firearms can be prohibited, and the precedent created by the NFA that a complete class of firearms can be absorbed under Federal Control.
Sure, that sounds reasonable.
Oh . . . wait -
From the article - "Under the new rule, bump stock owners would be required to destroy or surrender the devices to authorities. Members of the public will be given 90 days to turn in or otherwise discard their bump stocks, according to a source familiar with the final rule."
Yes, we hijacked a little and moved to pre 1986 Class 3 weapons.
Edit: I see that Marc already addressed this. Someday I will learn to read ahead before posting.0 -
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quote:Originally posted by mnrivrat48
In my way of thinking many gun owners are getting exactly what they are putting in for effort. A lousy $35 a year or less to join the NRA. There should be 30 or 40 million members but the rest are to damn cheap to help. If you don't belong to some national gun rights organization you will have nothing to bitch about when they come for your guns. Who is working to get the right people elected ? Leaving that effort to your neighbor as well ?
IF your like the majority of gun owners your complacency, your lack of funding, your lack of effort is going to loose all of is the 2nd amendment and fire arm rights. For those who don't put up, you should just shut up.
Trump isn't going to do it all, and neither am I. I can only do so much , then I have to buy my groceries and pay my rent and other bills. My letters and e-mails likely hit the trash as fast as the politicians get them in the mail room that they have never been to.
Yes - I'm talking about you Barz ! (I'm pretty sure your not a NRA member) If you don't care for the 2nd amendment then you don't care for any of them.
If your all pro gun talk and no action , then you will get the government someone else wants. Good luck with that because it is on its way.
Trump has proven himself to be part of the problem.
'Barz' hasn't contributed in this thread, so I guess I don't see your issue.
Now to your greater point:
https://home.nra.org/joint-statement
From the link:
'Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law. The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations.'
Screw your NRA.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mnrivrat48
In my way of thinking many gun owners are getting exactly what they are putting in for effort. A lousy $35 a year or less to join the NRA. There should be 30 or 40 million members but the rest are to damn cheap to help. If you don't belong to some national gun rights organization you will have nothing to bitch about when they come for your guns. Who is working to get the right people elected ? Leaving that effort to your neighbor as well ?
IF your like the majority of gun owners your complacency, your lack of funding, your lack of effort is going to loose all of is the 2nd amendment and fire arm rights. For those who don't put up, you should just shut up.
Trump isn't going to do it all, and neither am I. I can only do so much , then I have to buy my groceries and pay my rent and other bills. My letters and e-mails likely hit the trash as fast as the politicians get them in the mail room that they have never been to.
Yes - I'm talking about you Barz ! (I'm pretty sure your not a NRA member) If you don't care for the 2nd amendment then you don't care for any of them.
If your all pro gun talk and no action , then you will get the government someone else wants. Good luck with that because it is on its way.
Did you miss the point that we're talking about stopping Trump in this thread?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Someday I will learn to read ahead before posting.
As will I.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by mnrivrat48
In my way of thinking many gun owners are getting exactly what they are putting in for effort. A lousy $35 a year or less to join the NRA. There should be 30 or 40 million members but the rest are to damn cheap to help. If you don't belong to some national gun rights organization you will have nothing to bitch about when they come for your guns. Who is working to get the right people elected ? Leaving that effort to your neighbor as well ?
IF your like the majority of gun owners your complacency, your lack of funding, your lack of effort is going to loose all of is the 2nd amendment and fire arm rights. For those who don't put up, you should just shut up.
Trump isn't going to do it all, and neither am I. I can only do so much , then I have to buy my groceries and pay my rent and other bills. My letters and e-mails likely hit the trash as fast as the politicians get them in the mail room that they have never been to.
Yes - I'm talking about you Barz ! (I'm pretty sure your not a NRA member) If you don't care for the 2nd amendment then you don't care for any of them.
If your all pro gun talk and no action , then you will get the government someone else wants. Good luck with that because it is on its way.
Did you miss the point that we're talking about stopping Trump in this thread?
Just a matter of time until the hard core Trumpettes here start with the infamous,....."Well, he had to do something you know!"0 -
Don't mix up legal Class 3 owners with the bump stock .. 0 -
I suppose this is as good a time as any to plug the Second Amendment Foundation:
www.saf.org
Please consider contributing to them. They're wholly opposed to bump stock bans, unlike the NRA.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by mnrivrat48
In my way of thinking many gun owners are getting exactly what they are putting in for effort. A lousy $35 a year or less to join the NRA. There should be 30 or 40 million members but the rest are to damn cheap to help. If you don't belong to some national gun rights organization you will have nothing to bitch about when they come for your guns. Who is working to get the right people elected ? Leaving that effort to your neighbor as well ?
IF your like the majority of gun owners your complacency, your lack of funding, your lack of effort is going to loose all of is the 2nd amendment and fire arm rights. For those who don't put up, you should just shut up.
Trump isn't going to do it all, and neither am I. I can only do so much , then I have to buy my groceries and pay my rent and other bills. My letters and e-mails likely hit the trash as fast as the politicians get them in the mail room that they have never been to.
Yes - I'm talking about you Barz ! (I'm pretty sure your not a NRA member) If you don't care for the 2nd amendment then you don't care for any of them.
If your all pro gun talk and no action , then you will get the government someone else wants. Good luck with that because it is on its way.
Did you miss the point that we're talking about stopping Trump in this thread?
Just a matter of time until the hard core Trumpettes here start with the infamous,....."Well, he had to do something you know!"0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
quote:Originally posted by US Military Guy
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
Without sounding paranoid,...........how long do you think it will be before collectors and Class 3 dealers with registered historic and rare FA firearms receive letters instructing them to relinquish or demill them? Oh, and I really hate this topic. [V]
As current ownership is protected, I would think that confiscation or demilling would not apply to current owners. No stretch to think, however, that any future sale of these items could be prohibited, which would effectively destroy their value. As many of these are owned by trusts, it is possible that there will be ways to get around this, but if Congresscritters get serious about it, that method of transfer could be easily blocked.
The bigger issue, IMO, is the precedent created by Reagan's FOPA that new manufacture of a complete class of firearms can be prohibited, and the precedent created by the NFA that a complete class of firearms can be absorbed under Federal Control.
Sure, that sounds reasonable.
Oh . . . wait -
From the article - "Under the new rule, bump stock owners would be required to destroy or surrender the devices to authorities. Members of the public will be given 90 days to turn in or otherwise discard their bump stocks, according to a source familiar with the final rule."
They are talking about FA firearms,...not bump stocks.
Please accept my apology.
I thought we were talking about incrementally losing our 2nd Amendment rights.
[;)]0 -
Just think... those who don't abide..will lose all gun rights.. 0 -
What happens in Vegas didn't stay in Vegas.. 0 -
Do I need to relinquish my thumbs and belt loops as well?[}:)] 0
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