I think Trump screwed the pooch on this one
Yes, as POTUS he is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America. Yes, he has a lot of power to send troops into harms way by his Orders. Yes, the Military is bound by our Constitution to follow those lawful orders.
That does not mean the President should shoot from the hip when deciding on our deployments and leaving allies in the lurch. The World detests a vacuum, the void left by our leaving Syria is betraying the Kurds; much as we betrayed the S. Vietnamese at the end of our so-called Police action there.
Trump is creating too many vacuums within our nations leadership, he is reacting to emotion, not acting on facts as they are. Mattis is a true servant of the Nation; his departure leaves a vacuum, a dangerous one, as vast as deep space.
Mr Trump; you need to listen to the experts you have hired and stop shooting from the hip when men's lives are at stake.
That does not mean the President should shoot from the hip when deciding on our deployments and leaving allies in the lurch. The World detests a vacuum, the void left by our leaving Syria is betraying the Kurds; much as we betrayed the S. Vietnamese at the end of our so-called Police action there.
Trump is creating too many vacuums within our nations leadership, he is reacting to emotion, not acting on facts as they are. Mattis is a true servant of the Nation; his departure leaves a vacuum, a dangerous one, as vast as deep space.
Mr Trump; you need to listen to the experts you have hired and stop shooting from the hip when men's lives are at stake.
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We do not need to have our Best, deployed to these Third World Nation Crapholes, with "limited Rules of Engagement," in order to be waliking targets indefinately.
Go in big, put a massive hurting on them, and get out. If you are not willing to do that, then do not go there in the first place.
My Humble opinion.0 -
quote:Originally posted by us55840
Just a thought ~ but seems to me that when the U.S. eliminated Saddam Hussein from his dictatorship, regardless of how ruthless and inhuman it was, it left a huge opening for total chaos in the middle east.
In conflicts the U.S. has been in since WWII .. our military has not been openly defeated except by our own politicians who hamstrung them from an all out, clear and decisive win.
[:0]
I would agree with that.
Go in big, put a massive hurting on them, and get out.
Do it over and over, until they get the message.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
We do not need to have our Best, deployed to these Third World Nation Crapholes, with "limited Rules of Engagement," in order to be waliking targets indefinately.
Go in big, put a massive hurting on them, and get out. If you are not willing to do that, then do not go there in the first place.
My Humble opinion.
Agreed, the rules of engagement in a freaking war are stupid. I do not want willy-nilly killing of people but a perceived threat that is removed from the battle field is not something that the chain of Command should be involved in. If the Chain of Command want to have restrictive rules of engagement; let them man up and lead the way!
Hey POTUS or General, here take this M-4 and charge that village but do NOT fire unless you are having bullets fly in your direction under penalty of the UCMJ.0 -
Suck it up, move on, and pray that the swampers don't win. that 0 -
And now bpost is secretary of defense. We shall see. 0 -
OK,,jut say we stay,,what is the plan,,there has never been one !!! how long do we stay,,how do we defeat the enemy ?? how many lives and money are we willing to loose just to keep the status as it is now. Are we supposed to spend the next 20 years and trillion's of dollars in a country that the majority does not even want us there ?? My opinion is just that,,,, but we need to STOP trying to be the worlds police force,,that is why we pay big money into the UN and NATO.. Those tribes were killing each other for 100's of years before we went in and they will be killing each other after we leave.. Get the hell out of the middle east and if they come after us light them up from the sky like Mohammad himself came to visit 0 -
a real enemy only deserves DEAD....ROE's are self defeating....or drone drop them crayons and a coloring book about playing nice ???? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by sharpshooter039
OK,,jut say we stay,,what is the plan,,there has never been one !!! how long do we stay,,how do we defeat the enemy ?? how many lives and money are we willing to loose just to keep the status as it is now. Are we supposed to spend the next 20 years and trillion's of dollars in a country that the majority does not even want us there ?? My opinion is just that,,,, but we need to STOP trying to be the worlds police force,,that is why we pay big money into the UN and NATO.. Those tribes were killing each other for 100's of years before we went in and they will be killing each other after we leave.. Get the hell out of the middle east and if they come after us light them up from the sky like Mohammad himself came to visit
Exactly. Facts of the matter, there will always be one damn excuse or another to keep a military presence where we have them now - try to figure how many that is already. Not only that, the swampers will want to extend into other nations aside from the ones we are already in and, again, how many is that?! So, you either buy off on establishment agendas run by the swamp rats which are many, or you let them fight their own damn battles and shed their blood. I'm ready to rid this nation of the establishment swamp rats and start with a clean slate...and accept the consequences, and then, should we have to fight again, let the carnage begin.0 -
BUILD THE DAMN WALL! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by sharpshooter039
OK,,jut say we stay,,what is the plan,,there has never been one !!! how long do we stay,,how do we defeat the enemy ?? how many lives and money are we willing to loose just to keep the status as it is now. Are we supposed to spend the next 20 years and trillion's of dollars in a country that the majority does not even want us there ?? My opinion is just that,,,, but we need to STOP trying to be the worlds police force,,that is why we pay big money into the UN and NATO.. Those tribes were killing each other for 100's of years before we went in and they will be killing each other after we leave.. Get the hell out of the middle east and if they come after us light them up from the sky like Mohammad himself came to visit
^^^^ this...it's not our problem, it's not our fight. Why the hell do you think we should stay there!!! Do you enjoy throwing away American lifes and money on a problem that's not our problem?
I should say bring home all the troops and make America great again... instead of trying to police the world.
You know every empire that has tried to police the world in the past has fallen. Is that what you want of the United States, is to fall?
I never would have guessed you to be a new world Order follower.0 -
Three options are on the table for Syria and Afghanistan:
1) Keep the status quo: Endless low-level war with no prospect of victory or defeat.
2) "Surge": Pour in troops, equipment, and money.
3) Get the hell out.
Option 1 is pointless, whether folks want to admit it or not. It's really only option 2 or 3.
It's a clear vote for 3 for me.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
Three options are on the table for Syria and Afghanistan:
1) Keep the status quo: Endless low-level war with no prospect of victory or defeat.
2) "Surge": Pour in troops, equipment, and money.
3) Get the hell out.
Option 1 is pointless, whether folks want to admit it or not. It's really only option 2 or 3.
It's a clear vote for 3 for me.
Which brings to mind the old saying about the common sense that God gave the goose.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
We do not need to have our Best, deployed to these Third World Nation Crapholes, with "limited Rules of Engagement," in order to be waliking targets indefinately.
Go in big, put a massive hurting on them, and get out. If you are not willing to do that, then do not go there in the first place.
My Humble opinion.
Well put Bravo.
I have served in enough of these 3rd world crapholes and played the stupid games.
F what the media think. If Obama was still POTUS, the accolades and slobbering adoration would be continuous.
People are clueless as of how long have we been playing games in that region protecting the Kurds and nothing gets fixed.
Well done MR President0 -
Mattis was right that we should consider our allies before making these goof decisions. We were a buffer for Israel to keep in check Iran and Russia , and the Kurds to prevent Turkey from annihilating them. We turned tail and ran out and this is something I expected Obama to do, not Trump. Now the vacuum will be filled by our adversaries. Mattis's decision to resign seem to indicate he was not in on this decision, and bypassing the Secretary of Defense on this was way too much. 0 -
How'd that work out for him? 0 -
maybe a few on this forum (and in this country) ought to read Sun Tzu's book about the decimation of nations treasury that is created by financing war on foreign soil.
I guess if you guys like your government spending money they dont' have to fight wars they cant win in countries that don't matter,
then by all means, we should stay so we don't cause a power vacuum!!!
holy **((*&(*&**&&, what the hell is wrong with some of you guys.
if it was your 20 year old over there dying in some poop hole for no good reason maybe your perspective would be different.0 -
maybe a few on this forum (and in this country) ought to read Sun Tzu's book about the decimation of nations treasury that is created by financing war on foreign soil.
I guess if you guys like your government spending money they dont' have to fight wars they cant win in countries that don't matter,
then by all means, we should stay so we don't cause a power vacuum!!!
holy **((*&(*&**&&, what the hell is wrong with some of you guys.
if it was your 20 year old over there dying in some poop hole for no good reason maybe your perspective would be different.0 -
We have done much for our allies. What have they done for us in recent times? Maybe we woul be better off with these troups securing our own borders from foreign invaders. I'm tired of our best youth dying in foreign countries in conflicts that are not winnable. 0 -
We have spent trillions of dollars and lost / and injured thousands of young men.
I would take up arms now to the death to defend the country, but for the life of me, I can not understand with any clarity just what we have accomplished and how staying will make our murky objectives for that part of the world anymore obtainable.
We will not secure our own borders or boaster our immigration policies, but we will send our young men to die in countries that have advanced little in thousands of years, and wouldn't give us the time of day if we didn't pay them to do so.
As soon as we leave, it will be as if we were never there.0 -
He said he was going to pull our troops out when he ran. Apparently folks that voted for him didn't think he was actually going to do it. Afghanistan, Syria, Libya and Africa are never going to be stable. The extremist genie is out of the bottle. So some of you are advocating a permanent state of war with these regions, sucking our fortune and manpower into that Muslim mess. 0 -
Everyone has posted some thoughtful replies.
I still think Trump screwed the pooch with this decision.
If we go back to a sunny morning 09-11-2001 I was awoken at 4AM from my slumber by an hysterical call from my soon to be bride. She was in Ohio when we were attacked; calling me to tell me about it.
I sat mesmerized in front of the television crying like a baby with pure rage at the Muslim nut-cases for this cowardly attack on civilians.
I also remember the invasion of Afghanistan and the fast defeat of the Muslim Taliban Government in a just war.
We were told by "experts" it takes on average about ten years to completely defeat a enemy in gorilla war.
Our nation, for the third time in recent history sent our blood and treasure to far off lands to destroy an enemy. We soon won the "war" then tied the hands of our troops with ROE's to appease the press trying to manage the elusive "peace". It was and still is a failure.
When America won a war we we did it by completely destroying the enemies ability to wage war anymore. Japan and Germany are excellent examples of that policy, we destroyed the Government of these nations then offered a hand up in rebuilding the Country for the people.
Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are examples of what happen when you do not destroy the enemy. They are examples of what happens when you "McNamara" a war you leave an open festering wound that will not heal. They are examples of propping up corrupt governments like Karzi's and the Shaw of Iran (remember him?).
Trump had the right as POTUS to order our troops out. He also betrayed the Kurds badly and they will not forget this. We are cutting and running willy-nilly without so much as a plan or a way to fill the void after we are gone.
Mad Dog Maddis will be missed and he did the right thing by quitting when the boss stuck his head up his arse and shot from the hip, yet again.
Going back to reason for the war in Afghanistan was just in my mind, Iraq is questionable and neither of them are over after almost 18 years.
Trump is not a military man, he can not think in military terms and as Commander in Chief needs to defer strategic decisions until the time he is fully, thoughtfully informed of options, reasons and anticipated results.
Trump's decisions are Obama like, wrong and going to get more people killed or enslaved as a result.0 -
quote:Originally posted by thorhammer
Mattis was right that we should consider our allies before making these goof decisions. We were a buffer for Israel to keep in check Iran and Russia , and the Kurds to prevent Turkey from annihilating them. We turned tail and ran out and this is something I expected Obama to do, not Trump. Now the vacuum will be filled by our adversaries. Mattis's decision to resign seem to indicate he was not in on this decision, and bypassing the Secretary of Defense on this was way too much.
Mattis was consulted in April about an immediate pull out. He told the President that it was too soon and that he needed ?months, not years? to prepare. Trump supported his Secretary of Defense and delayed the withdrawal. Mattis had 8 months to prepare and to prepare our allies.
The Kurds either were informed or should have been informed. Perhaps their desire for the overthrow of Assad and of our NATO ally Turkey was more important than an orderly retrenchment to prepare for the planned troop removal.
We are not leaving the area, merely pulling back to the borders of Syria. Rapid response forces and air power are still in place.
Mattis apparently failed in his assigned task, and like a good little soldier, resigned or was asked to resign.
Let?s not make mountains of molehills.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by thorhammer
Mattis was right that we should consider our allies before making these goof decisions. We were a buffer for Israel to keep in check Iran and Russia , and the Kurds to prevent Turkey from annihilating them. We turned tail and ran out and this is something I expected Obama to do, not Trump. Now the vacuum will be filled by our adversaries. Mattis's decision to resign seem to indicate he was not in on this decision, and bypassing the Secretary of Defense on this was way too much.
Mattie was consulted in April about an immediate pull out. He told the President that it was too soon and that he needed ?months, not years? to prepare. Trump supported his Secretary of Defense and delayed the withdrawal. Mattie had 8 months to prepare and to prepare our allies.
The Kurds either were informed or should have been informed. Perhaps their desire for the overthrow of Assad and of our NATO ally Turkey was more important than an orderly retrenchment to prepare for the planned troop removal.
We are not leaving the area, merely pulling back to the borders of Syria. Rapid response forces and air power are still in place.
Mattie apparently failed in his assigned task, and like a good little soldier, resigned or was asked to resign.
Let?s not make mountains of molehills.
Mattie?! Seriously!?! When it comes to disrespect......nevermind. [}:)]
Clam down Jim.
I believe that was a typo. (The e and s are very close in proximity on the keyboard.) God knows my devices have a mind of their own when I type. Autocorrect is both a blessing and a curse.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost
Everyone has posted some thoughtful replies.
I still think Trump screwed the pooch with this decision.
If we go back to a sunny morning 09-11-2001 I was awoken at 4AM from my slumber by an hysterical call from my soon to be bride. She was in Ohio when we were attacked; calling me to tell me about it.
I sat mesmerized in front of the television crying like a baby with pure rage at the Muslim nut-cases for this cowardly attack on civilians.
I also remember the invasion of Afghanistan and the fast defeat of the Muslim Taliban Government in a just war.
We were told by "experts" it takes on average about ten years to completely defeat a enemy in gorilla war.
Our nation, for the third time in recent history sent our blood and treasure to far off lands to destroy an enemy. We soon won the "war" then tied the hands of our troops with ROE's to appease the press trying to manage the elusive "peace". It was and still is a failure.
When America won a war we we did it by completely destroying the enemies ability to wage war anymore. Japan and Germany are excellent examples of that policy, we destroyed the Government of these nations then offered a hand up in rebuilding the Country for the people.
Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are examples of what happen when you do not destroy the enemy. They are examples of what happens when you "McNamara" a war you leave an open festering wound that will not heal. They are examples of propping up corrupt governments like Karzi's and the Shaw of Iran (remember him?).
Trump had the right as POTUS to order our troops out. He also betrayed the Kurds badly and they will not forget this. We are cutting and running willy-nilly without so much as a plan or a way to fill the void after we are gone.
Mad Dog Maddis will be missed and he did the right thing by quitting when the boss stuck his head up his arse and shot from the hip, yet again.
Going back to reason for the war in Afghanistan was just in my mind, Iraq is questionable and neither of them are over after almost 18 years.
Trump is not a military man, he can not think in military terms and as Commander in Chief needs to defer strategic decisions until the time he is fully, thoughtfully informed of options, reasons and anticipated results.
Trump's decisions are Obama like, wrong and going to get more people killed or enslaved as a result.
You made all the arguments for us pulling out...
We are not fighting to win... So why stay and spend of billions more dollars and thousands of lives into a war that we're not fighting to win
Trump will never convince Congress to let us fight a winning war, unless you can prove to Congress an immediate threat to our nation. Which je can't prove for this police action, because there is no threat to our nation. So why spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives more on a war we cannot win the way Congress is tying our hands behind their back.
So you explain to me how throwing billions of dollars and thousands of lives away on this police action that we have no dog in the fight benefits our country in anyway.
I will listen to you with an open mind, but you need to explain how it benefits our country spending billions of dollars and throwing away thousands of lives for nothing... Explain why it's not for nothing...0 -
us55840: "Just a thought ~ but seems to me that when the U.S. eliminated Saddam Hussein from his dictatorship, regardless of how ruthless and inhuman it was, it left a huge opening for total chaos in the middle east."
You are correct, sir! Yeah the Generals and the great Republican advisors were all in favor of Bush Jr.'s Iraq War. And we whipped Saddam in just 6 weeks! What a great war, the generals and the great advisors loved it!
And then, with the absence of Saddam, total chaos descended upon the middle east.
Good God am I sick and tired of these endless wars that do more harm than good. I am glad we are out of Syria.
Now for Afghanistan. A bunch of 8th century Muslim radical goat herders. What good can we possibly accomplish there? What good have we accomplished there.
We may leave next month, or, we may leave in ten years, and the country will still be inhabited by a bunch of 8th century goat herding Muslim savages.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
us55840: "Just a thought ~ but seems to me that when the U.S. eliminated Saddam Hussein from his dictatorship, regardless of how ruthless and inhuman it was, it left a huge opening for total chaos in the middle east."
You are correct, sir! Yeah the Generals and the great Republican advisors were all in favor of Bush Jr.'s Iraq War. And we whipped Saddam in just 6 weeks! What a great war, the generals and the great advisors loved it!
And then, with the absence of Saddam, total chaos descended upon the middle east.
Good God am I sick and tired of these endless wars that do more harm than good. I am glad we are out of Syria.
Now for Afghanistan. A bunch of 8th century Muslim radical goat herders. What good can we possibly accomplish there? What good have we accomplished there.
We may leave next month, or, we may leave in ten years, and the country will still be inhabited by a bunch of 8th century goat herding Muslim savages.
I concur.
Not worth one American life. Much less the # that have been killed and/or damaged beyond repair there.0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by thorhammer
Mattis was right that we should consider our allies before making these goof decisions. We were a buffer for Israel to keep in check Iran and Russia , and the Kurds to prevent Turkey from annihilating them. We turned tail and ran out and this is something I expected Obama to do, not Trump. Now the vacuum will be filled by our adversaries. Mattis's decision to resign seem to indicate he was not in on this decision, and bypassing the Secretary of Defense on this was way too much.
Mattie was consulted in April about an immediate pull out. He told the President that it was too soon and that he needed ?months, not years? to prepare. Trump supported his Secretary of Defense and delayed the withdrawal. Mattie had 8 months to prepare and to prepare our allies.
The Kurds either were informed or should have been informed. Perhaps their desire for the overthrow of Assad and of our NATO ally Turkey was more important than an orderly retrenchment to prepare for the planned troop removal.
We are not leaving the area, merely pulling back to the borders of Syria. Rapid response forces and air power are still in place.
Mattie apparently failed in his assigned task, and like a good little soldier, resigned or was asked to resign.
Let?s not make mountains of molehills.
Mattie?! Seriously!?! When it comes to disrespect......nevermind. [}:)]
iPhone auto-correct, snowflake.
I fixed the original post. I disrespect intended.
Mountains and molehills again.0 -
Americans are constantly fed an overload of BS. Case in point, they are taught to learn from their mistakes by not repeating the past. Enter Vietnam. What stupid SOB(s) got us bogged down in the Middle-East? Did our leaders learn from Vietnam? Or I should say what shrewd, calculating establishment politician SOB's got us bogged down there and keep us there, while they look out for their own skin, money, and lucrative retirements...all the while FO John Q. Public, by having him shed his blood as a world policeman, and pay their enemies to boot, while their family and friends grieve for the remainder of their lives? Put that in your pipe and smoke it! How does this connect to history and learning from our mistakes?
No, asking our allies to step-up to the plate and share in their full responsibilities for such missions is not much to ask of an ally. We can put men on the moon, but our criminal establishment politicians want total leadership control of our allies, and their constituents, rather than building a coalition with shared leadership. These are some sorry ______ that don't deserve to breathe, much less govern. My two cents, folks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
There will be no such thing as "winning" in that area, in the traditional sense, and to find fault in people for not achieving such a specious requirement is pointless.
I think keeping the fight in their backyard, instead of ours, is victory enough.
I think establishing real alliances with people who can and will fight, is victory enough.
I think denial of critical real estate to Russia and China is victory enough.
Agree with the above, disagree with the below.
quote:
I think those things are being sacrificed on an altar of political expediency, to prop up a failing presidency and make a child feel better about himself and throw meat to the less than thoughtful, for the same reason.0 -
quote:There will be no such thing as "winning" in that area, in the traditional sense, and to find fault in people for not achieving such a specious requirement is pointless.
I think keeping the fight in their backyard, instead of ours, is victory enough.
I think establishing real alliances with people who can and will fight, is victory enough.
I think denial of critical real estate to Russia and China is victory enough.
Yep that worked so well in Vietnam we should do it again,,0
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