Navy to Discharge All who refuse Covid -19 shot
How much you wanna bet that if your post is a very important one with highly skill knowledge that you get an exception, but if you are just a regular sailor it's hit the door and get out now!
serf
Any active-duty Navy service members who do not get fully vaccinated or do not have an approved or pending exemption will be processed for an honorable separation without involuntary separation, according to NAVADMIN 225/21, released by Vice Chief of Naval Operations Adm. William Lescher and Chief of Naval Personnel Vice Adm. John Nowell.
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Don McManus: 33170120826139/comments/33170165426971
https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11301976#Comment_11301976
Refusing and questioning orders are two different things, Bob.
A couple of points. We know the Biden believes those not getting vaccinated are Trump supporters. We know that early this year, he instigated a program to identify Trump supports under the guise of white supremacy following the 6 January mostly peaceful protest.
With this in mind, it is not a big stretch to consider whether these mandates are the left's attempt to purge people who are not easily manipulated into doing questionable things. Purging independent thought in the lower ranks leads to mindless order takers in the upper ranks in a very short time.
Mindless order takers in the upper ranks leads to a military command structure that can be convinced to engage in stupid and arguably criminal wars such as the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and to a lessor extent the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
A civilian controlled military is a good thing, but if structures are put into place to create a military that does not provide honest feedback, and generals who follow stupid orders without protesting and/or resigning, we are left with the dictatorial military machine that was contemplated by our Founders in their placing of a 2 year appropriation limit on the Army.
Don I agree with the points you have made but If a General or Admiral protests or questions his or her orders to vigorously then they will be bypassed and their career will be basically over no matter how competent they may be. If they resign in protest then they will surely be replaced by someone whose political beliefs mirrors or at least bends to those in civilian office. We should have a civilian controlled military but it seems that in todays world politics trumps responsible leadership. I don't have the answer to this and that is why I said my opinion was torn by the ramifications of the original topic. Bob
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One of the first things Stalin did, Bob was to purge the military of those he thought would not be in line with his desires. It is what tyrants do.
If you think for a minute that 90% of Flag officers in today's military, particularly those who rise to the top, are not politicians already, you would be incorrect. A look at the behavior of Austin and Milley over the past few months bear this out.
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The question still remains as to whether the order is lawful. One of the noted reasons for unconstitutionality is whether the order was done under emergency powers. Where is the current emergency? This has been the longest emergency in the history of the world and not many are talking about that.
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Don McManus: 33170120826139/comments/33170174253979
One of the first things Stalin did, Bob was to purge the military of those he thought would not be in line with his desires. It is what tyrants do.
If you think for a minute that 90% of Flag officers in today's military, particularly those who rise to the top, are not politicians already, you would be incorrect. A look at the behavior of Austin and Milley over the past few months bear this out.
I agree but still don't know the answer for insulating the military from political whims. Recently Lt. Colonel Scheller learned that you couldn't protest about the Afghanistan debacle without paying a price. He got off with only forfeiting a months pay but his career and chances for advancement are effectively over. I am afraid that others will pay a similar price if they speak out against the the vaccine mandate. If the military mandate was unlawful then some would speak up but that is not the case and most if not all will keep their misgivings private to preserve their careers. Bob
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Since the FDA was forced to rush the full approval of the MRNA experiment, Bob, the order is lawful.
It is, however, unnecessary and stupid.
Perhaps if they ordered only the fat sailors to get the treatment, it would be less stupid, but that would no doubt be viewed as discriminatory against some minority or sex.
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Don McManus: 33170120826139/comments/33170174253979
One of the first things Stalin did, Bob was to purge the military of those he thought would not be in line with his desires. It is what tyrants do.
If you think for a minute that 90% of Flag officers in today's military, particularly those who rise to the top, are not politicians already, you would be incorrect. A look at the behavior of Austin and Milley over the past few months bear this out.
They are going to do much more than just purge the Arm Forces of Trump supporters. In the end, you must comply with all orders, unlawful or not. The debacle on Jan 6th was a set-up to begin with.The speaker of the house would not allow reinforcing any police actions or deploy the National guard to guard The Halls of Congress period!
serf
A newly obtained video shows United States Capitol Police officers instructing several Jan. 6 protesters inside the Capitol about how to peacefully demonstrate there. The group included Jacob Chansley, the so-called “Q shaman” who has been in jail awaiting trial since January.
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Fortunately, it's super easy to replace folks like naval aviators with a decade of experience. What could possibly go wrong?
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BobJudy: 33170120826139/comments/33170172067867
https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11301939#Comment_11301939
The uniform code of military justice is unfortunately on the side of the president;
Mandates suck but the military is governed by a different set of rules than the civilian population. If a service person can't get a religious exemption and refuses the vaccine he will likely face at least a dishonorable discharge. Bob
That's not true, that is politics. The oath we took is what is true. Did you read and understand the oath?
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MrMag00: 33170120826139/comments/33170188818587
https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11301940#Comment_11301940
That's not true, that is politics. The oath we took is what is true. Did you read and understand the oath?
" Refusal to carry out a lawful order would likely violate Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (“UCMJ”), Failure to Obey Order or Regulation. Punishment could include a dishonorable or bad-conduct discharge, two years confinement, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances. "
I understand where you are coming from and I also don't like mandates but in this case what I like is irrelevant. The above quote from the article the I posted is directly linked to the oath of enlistment. The president gives a lawful order to the military and under the guidance of the UCMJ the orders are sworn to be carried out.
If it could be determined that it was an unlawful order then other options are available, but the vaccine order has not been determined unlawful. Bob
Edit to add a judge has just issued a temporary injunction regarding religious exemptions;
Biden admin barred from firing unvaccinated employees after DC judge issues injunction
A Washington, D.C., district judge issued a temporary restraining order against the Biden administration Thursday in a case regarding religious exemptions for COVID-19 vaccines.0 -
Zing
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I don't understand this at all. I was in the Army from 1981-2006. I have been all over the world and we were required to get shots before deployment and annual shots. We were required to have an annual physical and go the the dentist.
What we didn't do is pick when, where or what. We were marched or driven to the aid station and were lined up and given shots, half the time I had no idea what they were giving me. We were also issues pills for malaria and we were told when to take them. We went to the dentist as a squad at a time and you were told when to get a physical, when your time came you went. I was HALO qualififed and had to have a HALO physical along with a chamber test. If I didn't do it or blew it off I was off HALO status and that cost me $150 a month.
Everyone who deployed to Iraq was given a second small pox vac along with yellow fever and something else that I cannot remember.
That is the way the military worked when I was in...................I just don't understand this concept of a choice to get a shot or not.
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Sam06: 33170120826139/comments/33170217781915
I don't understand this at all. I was in the Army from 1981-2006. I have been all over the world and we were required to get shots before deployment and annual shots. We were required to have an annual physical and go the the dentist.
What we didn't do is pick when, where or what. We were marched or driven to the aid station and were lined up and given shots, half the time I had no idea what they were giving me. We were also issues pills for malaria and we were told when to take them. We went to the dentist as a squad at a time and you were told when to get a physical, when your time came you went. I was HALO qualififed and had to have a HALO physical along with a chamber test. If I didn't do it or blew it off I was off HALO status and that cost me $150 a month.
Everyone who deployed to Iraq was given a second small pox vac along with yellow fever and something else that I cannot remember.
That is the way the military worked when I was in...................I just don't understand this concept of a choice to get a shot or not.
Maybe the Biological warfare connection is why, mankind has defeated a lot of viruses and germs in the past in the medical field but have created a lot of research and have experimented with many of them for warfare.
serf
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Sam06 I feel ya, I served 76-80 and had similar routine for shots, but all the shots i got were proven vaccines at the time, not some experimental rushed to approval crapola like the covid shots... and we didn't have flu shots required at the time, so I can kinda understand todays soldiers not wanting to take this one... I 'm not sure how I would react to todays requirements were I still in the service, but as a civilian heck no for the shots for me.
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