M60 tanks in Nam?
I'm watching that "jar-head" Ermey in "Lock and Load" and he is talking about the history of tanks. I was a "tanker" from 73 to 76 (served on both M60s and M551s) so I was interested in what he was saying. But some how he's got some info that there were M60s in Viet Nam. The only US tanks I heard of in Nam were M48s and M551s. Anybody that was there ever SEE any M60s?
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quote:Originally posted by MudderChuck
About 60 miles by road, from you to the border. I always figured by the time we got everything packed up and drove out the gate, they'd be there to meet us.
I always figured they'd fake civil unrest on the East side of the border, move in tanks, then the next wave and the next. Some Russian General once said "quantity has a quality all it's own".
Got to figure, first thing they'd do is run MIG's over, then bombers, maybe tactical missiles. A MIG could be there in minutes. Static ground to air, air defense, was always pretty feeble in Germany, it was pretty much a one shot deal in most cases, if it ever got off a shot. They really didn't put much money or effort into it, my guess is they figured it was a lost cause anyway. To many MIG's, to mnay flight paths. "Quantity has a quality all it's own."
Kirch G?ns was right out there on a high plateau, rolling hills classic tank country.
Don't know if you ever noticed or not where you were sitting, was on the wrong side of the pass, you were in front of the best defensive positions LOL. The troops on the border were going to get rolled over, then you would hopefully mix it up some, maybe slow it down a bit and then the plan was to use tactical nukes. The question was always where the nukes were going off, in front of you, behind you or on you? My guess is they were going to use tactical nukes in West Germany so they could say it was purely defensive. Maybe engineering nukes to close avenues of advance (likely behind you). Blow the bridges, behind you.
Between being with the Division scouts, pretty much perpetual maneuver and training out and about, and exploring on my motorcycle, I got a pretty good overview of the area. I had a girlfriend that lived about five minutes from the border, about an hours drive (driving like a German) from my place to hers.
One discussion that always generates large silences, was that many of the villages between you and border, had communist leanings and actually supported West Germany being absorbed by the East Germans, instead of the other way around. A wave of insurgency was likely before the MIG's ever appeared. Bader Meinhof and the Red Army faction, were just later manifestations of what had always been there, since the end of the WW II. Heck I still remember helping to load a buddy into an ambulance, in Frankfurt, after a car bomb went off at the Armed Forces gas station. Or going to eat breakfast one morning and discovering the Mess Hall was a pile of rubble (Abrams Complex Frankfurt). It didn't happen every day, but often enough to keep a person nervous. Probably a 15 second blurb on the news back in the states.
I spoke some German when I got here, learned some more fast. When I got out in the country some and mingled, I was shocked at how many times somebody would try to convert me or recruit me. I got tired of filling out incidence reports.
I always figured we were sacrificial goats. And not meant to really deter or delay them.
I had a guy call B.S. on another board when I told him in 68 when the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia, I was standing (right) on the border and watched a MIG fly right over my head at around fifty meters, flying East to West. My first thought was WOW. I still remember the spot report I called in, whoever was on the other end asked if I was sure it was a MIG, my answer was it had a big red star on the side, was painted green, looked just like the pictures from my aircraft I.D. classes, I doubt it was Israeli, it sure wasn't one of ours.
Found out later (over somebodies pocket radio) MIG's were making practice bomb runs on Munich. They squashed that news quick, heard it for an hour or two and then never heard about it again.
My guess is you were like many of the Troops of the time, lived in a fairly closed community and were treated like a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed manure.
I always figured part of the reason for the Czech invasion, was to tie up troops and resources, to prevent them being used in Vietnam. Classic Sun Tzu.
I'm not saying I'm the sharpest needle in the sewing kit, but it took me about a year or so to figure it out. I always did seem to have a talent for noticing stuff that other people seemed to miss. I had my own opinions and sure didn't believe much of what I was told.
No question the guys on the rock and at the Ray Barracks in Friedberg were in place to just slow the Russians down for several days until NATO forces could be fully mobilized. That's why some units at Kirch Gons had Davey Crockett's, but they were stored at Koppern for safe keeping.0 -
We (1/33rd) were up in your AO (12th Cav), USAEUR alert (74-75 I forget) someplace east of Schotten. All of a sudden they pulled everybody up onto a hill top around 9-10 am, big open area and parked. Which was way unusual, just to stop tactical discipline like that and park in the open. I'd seen similar things happen before when somebody had done so much maneuver damage (collapsed a bridge or something) early on, that the budget was depleted for the movement(or so I thought).
They moved the whole company out into the open, in company formation. And started a class on field sanitation or some other inane subject.
I look up over a sea of bored faces and see a Bear Bomber flying over the clearing low and slow.
Somebody had failed to notify the Russians before calling the alert. The fit had hit the shan and the Russians demanded flyovers to verify what the truck was going on.
90% of the troops, didn't have clue or were too bored to notice or too tired to care, the other 10% knew enough to keep their mouths shut.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 70-101
No question the guys on the rock and at the Ray Barracks in Friedberg were in place to just slow the Russians down for several days until NATO forces could be fully mobilized. That's why some units at Kirch Gons had Davey Crockett's, but they were stored at Koppern for safe keeping.
Can you pick out the bunker in the photo of B?digen? Tip, right next to the LZ, I mean sports field.
On one Kaserene it was right next to or maybe under the Chapel.
I always wondered where they hid all the antenna's, I never did find any. I guess antenna's are easier to hide than bunkers LOL.
Another tip off was when they unloaded and cleared their weapons after leaving a building, not before they entered it. Somebody screwed that SOP up, dead give away.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MudderChuck
quote:Originally posted by 70-101
No question the guys on the rock and at the Ray Barracks in Friedberg were in place to just slow the Russians down for several days until NATO forces could be fully mobilized. That's why some units at Kirch Gons had Davey Crockett's, but they were stored at Koppern for safe keeping.
Can you pick out the bunker in the photo of B?digen? Tip, right next to the LZ, I mean sports field.
On one Kaserene it was right next to or maybe under the Chapel.
I always wondered where they hid all the antenna's, I never did find any. I guess antenna's are easier to hide than bunkers LOL.
Another tip off was when they unloaded and cleared their weapons after leaving a building, not before they entered it. Somebody screwed that SOP up, dead give away.
Amazing thanks.0 -
Bunker? In Budingen? ...Unless it was out near the Air CAV LZ I don't recall see anything!!? 0 -
What building was your troop in when you were at B?dingen? Anyplace on post with 24/7 armed (locked and loaded) guards? They were usually MP's when I was there. Usually a quick two minute walk (30 second run) from the Colonels house.
In another Kaserene, they had to take a part of the lid off for some reason. It was under a parking lot and just this side of huge. Or at least a lot deeper than you'd think, I didn't get a chance to make the tour. I remember thinking at the time, good spot, good drainage.
They played a shell game with the package anyway. Later they centralized it some.
You ever notice any 10th Group guys hanging around?
I never went on an active Easter Egg hunt, but occasionally a person would just kind of trip over it, a well maintained road on the way from nowhere, going no place. I found a remote site once, nobodies national uniform I've ever seen (king of reminded me of a subdued street car conductors uniform, no markings or patches), MP-5's and the guy looked uber competent. Knew I was coming before I got there, was standing in the street outside of the shack, in front of a well maintained gate and fence, in the rain, no overcoat, I could hear dogs barking in the distance.
Got to use a reverse logic tree. Either centralize storage and security, which makes it vulnerable and apparent. Or scatter it all over the country side, keep it quiet and keep it handy. Largely depended on the threat level. Got to think, bunkers all over this country, they are still finding them. Wouldn't it be odd if there were none at a Kaserene?
You ever trip across prepared fighting positions? Level shooting platform, Packed gravel base, usually with a berm in front. Marked by a stake with a number, often a cement pylon type marker. Usually a covered back way in and out. Brush trimmed in front of the position, but not too clean. Good fields of fire. I've tripped across those things by the hundreds in my travels, funny but many are still there and somebody is keeping the brush trimmed.0 -
MudderChuck -
I am not a vet, and was in diapers when Tet was fought, but I find your stories very interesting.
Stop on over to General Discussion some time and say hello.
Loaf0 -
I was in the building across from the mess hall ...just aside from that baseball diamond you can see in the Pic.s. We didn't have any guard position that required "armed guards" when I was there. I did hear the story about the two guards (armed) and about 3AM one of the guards was going to "scare" the other ...well he did and the other guard shot him in the head ...he died the next day. SO they moved the ammo out. Did you hear about the Sheridan that burnned up in the motor pool with a full load of ammo on it right next in line with all the other fully loaded tracks? *G* From what I heard it happened about 71 or 72? No tracks loaded after that. 0 -
Didn't hear about that one burning up 71-72 or if I did I sure don't remember.
They took everyones main gun firing pins away for awhile and left the tanks uploaded, 76 I think. I most always had a spare in my pocket anyway, most experienced M-60 tankers kept a spare handy, they tended to break at the tip on occasion. I doubt anybody turned in their spares.
Guess it was 76, in Graf, the range right next to 42 (forget the range number), watched a Sheridan burn. Driver should have got a medal, he managed to pull it out of line and away from the ammo point, before he bailed. I came back the next day for a look see and all that was left was a pile about a foot and a half tall. At least when a M-48 or an M-60 burned, there was something left after the fire.
Some yahoo threw a smoke grenade in the basement of your building, 68 sometime,just a prank I guess. They locked down the whole Kaserne, everybody back into their rooms. Nobody but NCO's, Officers and MP's allowed to move, locked and loaded. Moved a battalion of tanks out of Gelnhausen and Friedberg, pretty much surrounded B?dingen. Talk about a prank gone wrong.
They used to keep the tanks uploaded and then for awhile they'd keep the ammo stored separately. Even sometimes just MG ammo and no main gun rounds. I always figured it had to do with the threat level. Maybe it had to do with who had the football, or was just a part of the normal shell game they played on a fairly regular basis.0 -
quote:Originally posted by PBJloaf
MudderChuck -
I am not a vet, and was in diapers when Tet was fought, but I find your stories very interesting.
Stop on over to General Discussion some time and say hello.
Loaf
Thanks for the invite, I rarely get tired of hearing the sound of my own voice.[:D] I've been checking out the boards some. Saw the 12th Cav Crest on this thread, thought I might find a friend.0 -
*L* That's funny about the smoke grenade! When I was there and we had just gotten out the field playing war games, they were doing a re-model on the barracks there, and someone through an Arty Simulator in one of the empty rooms ...blew out all the windows! OR the time someone dropped one of those German "twine bombs" (ex-large cherry bomb that looked like a ball of string) next to the foundation about 2am on the weekend! Boy those were "fun" times! *L* 0 -
There were no M-60 tanks in Nam. Only the M-48 was there. I heard that Gunny video also. I am a retired intelligence officer who specialized in tanks. To my 33-years knowledge, there never were any M-60s in Nam. If someone has an authentic picture of one in Nam I would like to see it. I well remember the M-48s up at Hue, never saw an M-60 there. 0 -
No M60s in RVN that I know of. There were some older M48s, gas burners, due to shortage of the M48A3 Mod. Maybe some saw the M41s used by ARVN, they had a flat front slope .
Jim0 -
I posted without some basic info! I just surfed in and found this site, saw the tank posts and joined up.
25 years on tanks. M48A3 Tank Commander in RVN 67-68
Thanks
jim0 -
drove tanks with B co 2nd 34th armour 25th div later it was transferred to the big red one(1st div). they were M-48's 0
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