No Law Prohibiting or Abridging, Shall Not Infring
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
In the context of the Constitution, phrases like "shall not be infringed," "shall make no law," and "shall not be violated" sound pretty unbendable, but the Supreme Court has ruled that some laws can, in fact, encroach on these phrases. For example, though there is freedom of speech, you cannot slander someone or shout "fire" in a crowded theater; though you can own a pistol, you cannot own a nuclear weapon.
With the right to Vote, our society has limited that right to citizens and taken it from Felons and the Mentally Ill.
My point is that throughout our history our country has infringed on the rights and freedoms and rights of people. Criminals and traitors lose their freedom or their lives and many of their rights. Aliens may be imprisoned and deported, even if here legally. Felons lose their right to vote and own fire arms.
The use NIC's checks and 4473's in of themselves do not infringe on anyones rights. The information gathered from them can be used to infringe and is used to infringe on the rights of Felons, etc.
In the Founders' time, the mentally ill were locked up, essentially forever. Today, they are not but we keep them from owning firearms. Both are infringements on their rights with cause. The same can be said for Felons.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
In the context of the Constitution, phrases like "shall not be infringed," "shall make no law," and "shall not be violated" sound pretty unbendable, but the Supreme Court has ruled that some laws can, in fact, encroach on these phrases. For example, though there is freedom of speech, you cannot slander someone or shout "fire" in a crowded theater; though you can own a pistol, you cannot own a nuclear weapon.
With the right to Vote, our society has limited that right to citizens and taken it from Felons and the Mentally Ill.
My point is that throughout our history our country has infringed on the rights and freedoms and rights of people. Criminals and traitors lose their freedom or their lives and many of their rights. Aliens may be imprisoned and deported, even if here legally. Felons lose their right to vote and own fire arms.
The use NIC's checks and 4473's in of themselves do not infringe on anyones rights. The information gathered from them can be used to infringe and is used to infringe on the rights of Felons, etc.
In the Founders' time, the mentally ill were locked up, essentially forever. Today, they are not but we keep them from owning firearms. Both are infringements on their rights with cause. The same can be said for Felons.
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Matchshot ;
If you can mangage to ignore the trash mouthed by the collectivists that infest America...some pretty close.
Congratulations on your solitude...and using it to very good advantage.
We hereabout vary quite a bit over what the process should be for the future.
I can and will state my opinion.
I made it my business many years ago to look into all those demons you mentioned in your excellent post.
It became my belief after many years that the system had become so corrupted that there was no longer any hope to restore it by conventional means.
I harp on the Second Amendment simply because one man cannot hope to reach his arms across the massive injustices that are perpetrated daily against the Citizens of this country by those in authority.
Plus ..those same authorities PROHIBIT Citizens from tending to the animals that freely roam the streets.
I believe that the only solution is to step back and allow those in authority to freely follow their instincts ..which are akin to the lowest, common street criminal. Except street criminals are brave enough to stick a gun in the victims side.....
Things MUST get far worse in this country...
Then the Founders taught us how and WHY to deal with tyranny.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
I can't answer your question Chris. I had hope when RP entered the race for potus , that America would wake up, that God was throwing us one last chance so-to-speak. Now what?
Jeff,
Unfortunately, I think we are too far down the road of decay. Even if RP had been elected, there are too many laws and too many people invested in keeping us under those laws.
I believe that God's laws are above all authority. I believe also that our founding fathers based our country's founding principles in those laws. As we have turned from God so too we have turned from those principles.
I didn't come to this board looking for a fight but a discussion. Perhaps I am a fool for coming here. I will say though,between being called a traitor and a fool (among other things) there were some well thought through arguments that got me thinking in the last week. I agree that the meaning of "will not infringe" is clear. I am trying to figure is it possible to the point where the majority of society believes the same.0 -
[quote
Things MUST get far worse in this country...
[/quote]
Highball:
Although it seems to be headed that way, I hope you are wrong. Tyrannys have fallen without a shot fired and societies do change.
My prayer is that we will see an awakening that can only be divinely inspired.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Matchshot
How will we ever return to those truths?[/b]
How indeed?
Voting and voicing an opinion via email, phone, and letters hasn't worked.
They do NOT listen, and it just keeps getting WORSE.
Hopes and prayers haven't helped.
Barring divine intervention........well.........0 -
quote:My prayer is that we will see an awakening that can only be divinely inspired.
I too pray for that.
Meanwhile..I urge ALL to gather supplies and prepare for hard times that are here...not 'COMING.'
The problem with 'prayer' ?
Our churches are filled with 501(C3s)...and they no longer serve the Lords words plain and unvarnished.
The Revolution was led partially from the pulpit ...you can bet your gippy there will be NONE of that, today. The Preachers are mostly instruments of the government, today....
I am sorry for your hard times here..I am quite sure I am the main culprit.
Sometimes information...and honesty..is brutal. You no doubt are the injured party here..but I extend the hand of friendship if you truly have considered the situation ...and concluded that the entity WRONG here is the government...and not those of us demanding Constitutional principles.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Matchshot
I have been away for the last week with work and whatever free time I could get, hunting in the last week of the season. I had been thinking about the discussions about freedom, NIC's and 4473's. I wrote the following this morning, please forgive its rambling nature, but it does have a point.
I was sitting in a tree stand late last Monday afternoon. A 12 ga. slug gun lay across my lap. It was quiet, cold and I should have been in the office working on sales quotes, but life is short and this was a better use of my time. I like to be alone in the woods; in the solitude you have time to think. I was thinking about my family and the future my little boys face in this country. I thought about the discussions on this board. I rarely get involved in them because of family demands, work and being on the road a lot. This thread however comes at a time when I am trying to get straight about how to face the future.
In this post-Christian society, we can no longer depend on a common understanding of what is right and wrong. We certainly are at a place in our society where common civility, decency and commonsense are in short supply. The need for more and more laws is based on this loss of a common understanding that is our Judeo-Christian heritage. The truths that Thou shall not kill, Thou Shall not steal and Thou shall not have any other gods but Me, etc. This along with marriage being for one man, and one woman till death do they part are just some of the simple beliefs held for so long by the majority. We also understood that when you murder someone; you face death or long years in prison, swift and sure. The truth of Honor your mother and father and respect your elders have been replaced by a nihilistic, anything goes youth culture. These and many other truths that were commonly held as self-evident have been lost and their loss has created the need for more and more laws to govern every form of behavior. This is because when people will not govern their own actions, society will step in and try to do it for them.
I believe that the words "shall not infringe" in the 2A mean just that. I also believe that as long as our society continues down the path of moral and ethical decay we will see more and more laws and restrictions that infringe on many of our constitutional rights as government attempts to keep order. Tyranny rushes in to fill the void left by the decay of a society. True freedom will only return if and when the people of this country return to the truths that provided a bedrock on which to form a civil society.
How will we ever return to those truths?
I have clear ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bit receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bet receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
Many suggest that a little infringement is OK. They suggest that it is no different than laws that punish dangerous or damaging behavior and actions.
Sadly, we are not all one, because the degree that some wish to compromise re-defines the words 'people' and 'infringe', thus purposefully re-defining the intent and meaning of the 2nd. Many will never be one with those that believe in the concept of 'free enough'.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I do the same. The further I am from people the closer I feel to God and I do ALOT of thinking then as well.[8D]
What you said is correct to a degree, but many use this situation as an excuse to disarm us. Those in power know they have no real power as long as their 'subjects' are allowed to be armed. Thus they use any excuse and every opportunity to try and disarm them. This has been the case throughout history. Those responsible for founding this nation witnessed this first hand, thus the Bill of Rights, and more specifically the 2nd Amendment!!!
Many in this country are losing sight of the fundamentals of freedom and those in power are taking full advantage of this. The Internet is a powerful tool because information is a powerful tool and we MUST use this tool to educate those who are the least bet receptive to what is going on in our government and try and halt and reverse this process. IT TAKES ALL KINDS TO DO THIS! In this endeavor we are all ONE. We can debate and/or argue about degree and semantics, but we all MUST try and educate the many idiots out there as to what is happening and why!!![:(!]
Many suggest that a little infringement is OK. They suggest that it is no different than laws that punish dangerous or damaging behavior and actions.
Sadly, we are not all one, because the degree that some wish to compromise re-defines the words 'people' and 'infringe', thus purposefully re-defining the intent and meaning of the 2nd. Many will never be one with those that believe in the concept of 'free enough'.
Well you and those with the 'ideal' mind set will NEVER be free because you are trying to achieve perfection in an imperfect world. Thus the difference between 'ideal' and 'real'. The Founding Fathers were 'ideal' in their believes, but 'real' in their application. This is the way I see it. They would laugh at all of you who think you will ever even come close to your 'ideal' because they had not lost touch with the real world and had common sense. Going to war does that to you, I know this from experance![:(!]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Well you and those with the 'ideal' mind set will NEVER be free because you are trying to achieve perfection in an imperfect world. Thus the difference between 'ideal' and 'real'. The Founding Fathers were 'ideal' in their believes, but 'real' in their application. This is the way I see it. They would laugh at all of you who think you will ever even come close to your 'ideal' because they had not lost touch with the real world and had common sense. Going to war does that to you, I know this from experance![:(!]
Thus the statement that we are not one, Jim.
My experience was also one of compromise in this regard, because it was real, and I gained comfort in accepting that it was the best I could do. No more settling. Yes I know that in my lifetime I will probably not see the ideal. So What? If we give up and settle now, no one will ever have the hope of the ideal.
I would never pretend to suggest what the founders would think of someone with your beliefs, Jim. How do think they would have considered someone who stated that Tom's brilliant letter to King George was the ideal, but face it, guys, it is not reality?0 -
[B)] How was that verbal "right cross" Jim *ouch* 0 -
Didn't feel a thing. When your right the blows don't connect!!![;)] I don't believe in compromising my believes any more than you do yours. It just so happens I am a realist so my believes are realistic, not idealistic! I refuse to compromise them and fight to attain them. But the difference is I have a chance at success and you have no chance at success!!![:D]
My 'believe' of what the FF would do in today's world are much more accurate than are yours because they were real 'thinkers', not just rigid 'idealists/believers'![;)]0 -
Some would suggest that fitting one's beliefs to reality is compromise in and of itself.
I would suggest that such a compromise will deny freedom to those that follow us.
We now see that the re-definition of restriction, and the consequent re-definition of the 2nd Amendment has resulted in a concept of success that reserves to government the power to control firearm ownership.
Success is simple when one sets goals that are acceptable to his opponents. If memory serves, that is how Neville Chamberlain achieved success.0 -
Like I said before. I must be doing it right because the 'idealist' on both sides of this issue disagree with me!!![8D]
You want 'no restrictions' and they want the opposite 'total restriction'. Reality is somewhere between the two 'ideals', but much closer to your 'ideal' than their 'ideal'!! Simply because your ideal is based on the Constitution. Their ideal as no bases or logic to back it up what so ever!0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Some would suggest that fitting one's beliefs to reality is compromise in and of itself.
I would suggest that such a compromise will deny freedom to those that follow us.
We now see that the re-definition of restriction, and the consequent re-definition of the 2nd Amendment has resulted in a concept of success that reserves to government the power to control firearm ownership.
Success is simple when one sets goals that are acceptable to his opponents. If memory serves, that is how Neville Chamberlain achieved success.
another one[B)]*ouch*0 -
BTW Jim, Don's "ideal" isn't based on the Constitution, yours is. His is the Constitution. Light years difference. And what a realistic concept, eh? The document already exists, and the document IS the USofA. What is more realistic than that? 0 -
You want 'no restrictions'
No, Jim, that is incorrect.
It is not that we 'want' no restrictions, rather we 'demand' no restrictions. That's right; we, 'the people', DEMAND. 'And just why do you think you can demand anything of the government?' Here ya go; words of wisdom from the past:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."
Pretty clear who is the master and who is the servant, dontcha think?
To put it in today's terms,
'We da man'0 -
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
You want 'no restrictions'
No, Jim, that is incorrect.
It is not that we 'want' no restrictions, rather we 'demand' no restrictions. That's right; we, 'the people', DEMAND. 'And just why do you think you can demand anything of the government?' Here ya go; words of wisdom from the past:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,..."
Pretty clear who is the master and who is the servant, dontcha think?
To put it in today's terms,
'We da man'
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!![;)]
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!![}:)]0 -
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!!
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!!
The freedom from being killed by an intoxicated motorist is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from being stricken with cancer(s) is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from violence is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The RTKBA is a right of the people enumerated in the BOR, and it shall not be infringed. Period. Read it and weep.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
Thank you again Shane for proving my point. Demand away. Just like those who 'demand' no more death for drunk drivers, or 'demand' no more deaths from cancer, or 'demand' no more violence! Keep on demanding your 'ideal'. It will only show how unrealistic you are!!!!
You folks and Obama are keeping elitism alive in this country!!!
The freedom from being killed by an intoxicated motorist is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from being stricken with cancer(s) is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The freedom from violence is not a right enumerated in the BOR.
The RTKBA is a right of the people enumerated in the BOR, and it shall not be infringed. Period. Read it and weep.
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document! If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!0 -
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document!
Wrong. I do not for one second believe my rights come from the government. A lot of folks do, but that type of mentality is pure poison.
If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
You are exactly right. Folks can deny the true meaning of the RTKBA, but it in no way changes the reality that the RTKBA is a right free from intrusion, infringement, mandates, and regulation.
Let me ask you a question, Jim, specifically relating to this 'reality' you speak of.
If one chooses to carry a weapon as he wishes without begging permission to do so by some entity, is that reality?
If one chooses to own whatever arms he chooses, including those which expel more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, without begging permission to do so, is that reality?
I submit to you that it is.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document!
Wrong. I do not for one second believe my rights come from the government. A lot of folks do, but that type of mentality is pure poison.
If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
You are exactly right. Folks can deny the true meaning of the RTKBA, but it in no way changes the reality that the RTKBA is a right free from intrusion, infringement, mandates, and regulation.
Let me ask you a question, Jim, specifically relating to this 'reality' you speak of.
If one chooses to carry a weapon as he wishes without begging permission to do so by some entity, is that reality?
If one chooses to own whatever arms he chooses, including those which expel more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, without begging permission to do so, is that reality?
I submit to you that it is.
If your point is that people have to make choices as a part of reality you are not telling me anything I don't already know. But to deny the result of those choices is denying reality. Which is what your are doing. Will you ever realize your 'ideal' believes in the real world???? NO YOU WILL NOT, why can't you stop denying this and admit the truth?????
You have the right to be idealistic but this rigid closemindedness will accomplish nothing but frustration with reality!0 -
You have the right to be idealistic but this rigid closemindedness will accomplish nothing but frustration with reality!
Oh well. Like the song says, 'You go your way, and I'll go mine."
Believe whatever you wish concerning the Constitution, the BOR, or what you believe to be reality.
I'll stick with the rigidity of my closed-minded ideals.0 -
I already knew that Shane, that is the definition of close minded!!![}:)] 0 -
I already knew that Shane, that is the definition of close minded!!![}:)]
So be it. It is what it is, it is what I believe, and I am not changing.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
I already knew that Shane, that is the definition of close minded!!![}:)]
So be it. It is what it is, it is what I believe, and I am not changing.
I guess you know you and I are the idealistically the same? I dearly WISH things were just as they are stated in the Constitution!!
The only difference is I know that the human animal has screwed up everything it has touched, and this is no different. As long as we humans are involved it will never be applied as it is written no matter how much a FEW demand it.
As Bret as said. The fact we refuse to change here is not the point. We, by discussing this, give others who happen in something to think about. And you and I have done a good job at that!!![8D]0 -
I guess you know you and I are the idealistically the same? I dearly WISH things were just as they are stated in the Constitution!! 
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quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality I don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document! If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
There Jim, now it reflects the facts of your beliefs!
Shane, uncompromising men are admirable, principled men. 1st pic in my sig....
The 2nd is a matter of principle to those who understand it.
To compromisers, it is obviouly only a matter of style.0 -
Shane, uncompromising men are admirable, principled men. 1st pic in my sig....
The 2nd is a matter of principle to those who understand it.
[;)][;)][;)][;)][;)][;)][;)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Thanks again Shane for proofing my point even further. Reality I don't care what you base your 'idealistic' believe on. Idealism is idealism regardless what it is based on. You think your believes are 'special' because you base it on a government document! If this were a perfect world idealism would prevail over reality, BUT THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, even though you can't or won't except this fact!!! Denial does not change reality!
There Jim, now it reflects the facts of your beliefs!
Shane, uncompromising men are admirable, principled men. 1st pic in my sig....
The 2nd is a matter of principle to those who understand it.
To compromisers, it is obviouly only a matter of style.
No it don't and all of your feeble attempts to try and change my posts will not change the reality of the world we live in.
The mind set you have is no different than the mind set the terrorists have. It's their way or not at all. They kill those who disagree, but you just TRY to insult and discredit those who don't agree with you. Fundamentalism/extremism is the same mind set regardless of why or what you believe in!!![V]0 -
I start from the reality of a Constitution and BOR backing me up. See the difference? Stupid question, huh? Of course you don't. And my correction to your post was 100% spot on "Jim Rau reality"! To say otherwise simply demonstrates pure denial.
I will stick it out over here with the CA's demanding my God given rights, laid out in the BOR <---reality, it really exists
Please tell me where in the Constitution/BOR it says we must compromise God given rights? I just don't see it. All I see is a document that says what I and others, repeat.0
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