50 BMG powder in other cartridges???
Has it been done, or can it be safely done, that cartridges other than the 50 BMG been loaded with what is typically 50 BMG powder: VV 20N29 or 24N41, surpuls, or any other powder?
Why?
Well, at 225+ grains of powder per case, it has the potential to be an emergency powder source in dire times of shortage when one has some 50 BMG loaded ammo and other firearms that need feeding.
I suppose this thread could be called 'emergency gunpowder sources' or 'SHTF loads: scavenging gunpowder from captured enemy 50 BMG's' or whatever.
Nevertheless, i am intrigued in the possibility of utilizing the properties of the 50 BMG powders in other cartridges.
Any info or experience anywhere on 'powder swapping'?
C-
___________________________
God, Guts, and Guns: keeping America Strong for 200 years.
(sig about Clinton's talk show changed, though I thought it was pretty creative without overt vulgarity)
Why?
Well, at 225+ grains of powder per case, it has the potential to be an emergency powder source in dire times of shortage when one has some 50 BMG loaded ammo and other firearms that need feeding.
I suppose this thread could be called 'emergency gunpowder sources' or 'SHTF loads: scavenging gunpowder from captured enemy 50 BMG's' or whatever.
Nevertheless, i am intrigued in the possibility of utilizing the properties of the 50 BMG powders in other cartridges.
Any info or experience anywhere on 'powder swapping'?
C-
___________________________
God, Guts, and Guns: keeping America Strong for 200 years.
(sig about Clinton's talk show changed, though I thought it was pretty creative without overt vulgarity)
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According to my books the .50 BMG cartridge firing a 750gr bullet uses a charge of 225grs of H870 powder while a .300 and .338 Remington Ultra Mag can use between 100 and 109grs of H870 depending on their particualr bullet selection. You can fill up an Ultra Mag better than two times, as opposed to a single loading for a fifty caliber round. As far as the reuse of military powders from "captured" enemy fifty caliber ammo I would not even hazard a guess as to what kind of loadings you'd be playing with. Which particular enemy foreign power uses fifty caliber M2 BMGs?
Mark T. Christian0 -
MTC-
First off, thanks! That's exactly the type of answer i was looking for. I was expecting alot of warnings about blowing my own house up, etc. I half-way prepared my 'this is a hypothetical' response.
As far as what enemies goes, well i can't think of any. I hadn't thought that far. i suppose if someone bought some 50 cal ammo in the hopes of eventually getting a 50 rifle which never materialized; then for whatever reason decided to disassemble the ammo and re-use the powder then this info could be useful.
Maybe if anyone is the careful, titrating experimenter he/she could start then with a powder similar in characteristics to 870 and work up some sort of rough conversion. Or better take another ctg (other than 300 or 338 UM) that has referenced loads using 870 and post them.
Sometimes, its just knowledge for the sake of knowing.
C-
___________________________
God, Guts, and Guns: keeping America Strong for 200 years.
(sig about Clinton's talk show changed, though I thought it was pretty creative without overt vulgarity)0 -
There's load data for commercial 50bmg powder in the 30-378 weatherby magnum in alot of manuals. I've loaded it myself in the 338 ultra mag. with heavy bullets.It would probably load well in the 338 Laupa mag. and the 338-378 weatherby mag. also. -- Haven't tried any surplus powder -- be careful if you do...............[8D] 0 -
Hodgdon got their start as a company selling WWII powder .that was pulled from surplus ammo they never made powder themself for years.I bought 100 pound drums for $55.00 about the same time HIGH TEST gas was 28 cents a gallon the only thing is they had a test lab to find out burning rates ETC. you don't. Some slow burning powder such as 50 cal H4831 has blowup results when loaded in cartridges thus the warning not to reduce loads. be CAREFUL.Karl 0 -
As perry shooter noted, Hodgdon got their start recycling military powders . . . and some of these were in fact originally produced for the .50 BMG loads. I certainly don't advocate going about any such project as you suggest in the absence of data from an authorative source, but as a basic rule of thumb, trouble comes from loading powders with significantly faster burning rates than the optimum for a particular caliber rather than from those with lower burning rates (speaking of full / near full volume charges, not very light charges which gets into the controversial debate about S.E.E.). As long as you know the propellant, likely you can find some loads using that powder in a commercial cartridge and may be able to do some extrapolation.
ONE MAJOR CAUTION!! . . . military powders are often *NOT* identical to commercial powders even if they have the same product name . . . frequently they have been tweaked in some way to optimize performance for the particular characteristics of the firearm and load. Thus surplus H870 is almost certainly somewhat different than that produced for the civilian market and may well vary from lot to lot depending on whether it was produced for ball, AP or whatever. AS IN ALL SITUATIONS WHERE ONE IS DOING SUBSTITUTIONS, BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS & CONSERVATIVE IN WORKING UP LOADS!!!!!! Mind you, I'm not advocating anyone embark on such a project, but if you should, remember you are sailing into Terra Incognita and need your wits about you!
I would heartily endorse Mark's caution about the use of unknown propellants from foreign loadings. I'd need to be extraordinarily desperate - life threatening desperate - before using such salvage.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / DemoWipes" (me)0 -
yes the 50BMG powder can be used in magnum loadings of smaller calibers,..and it is quite often done. The extremely slow burn rate of the 50BMG and 20MM cannon powders allows loading in the magnums with heavy projectiles, and dense loads. It it far more likely that you would never reach an adequate pressure in say a 300win mag,..than you would reach an overpressure situation. If you notice in the load books,..H870 when used with the 300win and 300wthby,..is over 100% load density, and even in the 30-378wthby, 50BMG is in the mid to high 90% densities.
We have run H870 up to 104gr's in a 7mmRUM pushing the 162gr a-max out of a 26" barrel. The groups were horrible and still not a single sign of pressure was present (keep in mind the bullets were seated several .001"s into the lands which normaly should increase pressure). For many calibers, unless heavy bullets and long barrels are used (30-36"), the H870, 50BMG, and 2 slowest vihtavouri powders are too slow.
As Iconoclast stated,..even H870 (which was military surplus powder, sold to the public until it ran out) can vary extremely between lots. The 50BMG family of powders was developed to be used in much larger internal capacity cases, which are more forgiving and less affected by lot-to-lot variances. An acceptable percentage of burn rate variance in a 20MM cannon shell,..equates to a HUGE variance when ignited in a belted magnum case. This makes buying in BULK very important so as to maintain the same load recipe over time while loading from the same 50lbs you purchased all from the same pallet in the warehouse.
Also,...many of these powders are coated in various elements to keep their shelf life,..standardize their burn rate, and reduce bore temp. H870, if you have ever noticed, is very shiny. Graphite is often an ingrediant in the coatings which can play a role in faster bore fouling in smaller calibers.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?0 -
As Perry Shooter cautions, low loading density charges of slow burning rate powder has in the past ('50s-60s) caused destructive detonation of rifles in large capacity cases like the 25-06. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Iconoclast
As perry shooter noted, Hodgdon got their start recycling military powders . . . and some of these were in fact originally produced for the .50 BMG loads. I certainly don't advocate going about any such project as you suggest in the absence of data from an authorative source, but as a basic rule of thumb, trouble comes from loading powders with significantly faster burning rates than the optimum for a particular caliber rather than from those with lower burning rates (speaking of full / near full volume charges, not very light charges which gets into the controversial debate about S.E.E. - which is the "blowup" subject to which perry shooter and v35 refer - just bear in mind that *very* light charges of slow burning rifle powders in large cases has been alleged to cause serious problems and is at best a controversial practice). As long as you know the propellant, likely you can find some loads using that powder in a commercial cartridge and may be able to do some extrapolation.
ONE MAJOR CAUTION!! . . . military powders are often *NOT* identical to commercial powders even if they have the same product name . . . frequently they have been tweaked in some way to optimize performance for the particular characteristics of the firearm and load. Thus surplus H870 is almost certainly somewhat different than that produced for the civilian market and may well vary from lot to lot depending on whether it was produced for ball, AP or whatever. AS IN ALL SITUATIONS WHERE ONE IS DOING SUBSTITUTIONS, BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS & CONSERVATIVE IN WORKING UP LOADS!!!!!! Mind you, I'm not advocating anyone embark on such a project, but if you should, remember you are sailing into Terra Incognita and need your wits about you!
I would heartily endorse Mark's caution about the use of unknown propellants from foreign loadings. I'd need to be extraordinarily desperate - life threatening desperate - before using such salvage.
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / DemoWipes" (me)
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / DemoWipes" (me)0
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