Need advice on Accuracy problem
Ok, Little trouble on a Brand New Rifle I bought and its inconsistent accuracy. First off, its a Remington 700 BDL 30-06 with a New Bushnell Yardage Pro scope. The scope mounts directly to the base without ring mounts so there isn't any slippage. The shells I am using are hand loaded Nossler Ballistic tip 150gr with careful hand measuring of the powder for each round.
My problem is that after 3 or 4 shots my rounds loose all accuracy. We are talking about going from a 2-3" group at a 100 yards to almost dropping 7". Further more, I did the dollar bill test between the barrel and stock and can only slide it to about 4" before meeting resistance. My theory is that the barrel is heating up and the stock and barrel are making contact causing it to throw off my accuracy.
Anyone else had experience with this that can tell me how to go about solving it? With the gun brand new I am ready to send it back to Remington and tell them they should fix it. I have over $1500 in this firearm and was really looking forward to using it this deer season.
Just expected it would be more accurate then that.
Brad
My problem is that after 3 or 4 shots my rounds loose all accuracy. We are talking about going from a 2-3" group at a 100 yards to almost dropping 7". Further more, I did the dollar bill test between the barrel and stock and can only slide it to about 4" before meeting resistance. My theory is that the barrel is heating up and the stock and barrel are making contact causing it to throw off my accuracy.
Anyone else had experience with this that can tell me how to go about solving it? With the gun brand new I am ready to send it back to Remington and tell them they should fix it. I have over $1500 in this firearm and was really looking forward to using it this deer season.
Just expected it would be more accurate then that.
Brad
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I will admit its a possibility but keep in mind that the first two shots were TIGHT together. I am talking about almost touching. The remaining 3 shots were also tight but on the other side of the target. Wouldn't my grouping be loose and apart if i was flinching?
I was shooting in groups of five and taking my time between shots. At each five rounds I would leave the breach open and walk 200 yards before firing again. (100 yds down range and 100 yds back) This should have left ample time for cooling, correct?
I do appreciate your help and will try some of your suggestions. Will also continue to spend time at the range and get this worked out. Just never had an issue like this with any other weapon I own.
Best,
Brad0 -
If you're getting two or more distinct groups and it keeps doing this it screams scope or scope mount problem to me. Something is loose somewhere. Since your gunsmith already said the scope was loose maybe something there isn't staying where it's supposed to. Have him look at it again.
Hot barrel situations in my experience are pretty consistant. When they start moving you just get a string of shots leading away from your initial group and usually in the same direction and a particular rifle will move the same way every time.0 -
well my 2 cents worh is that the first shot is most important, what I mean is that when your hunting the gun is cold on that shot, and when you sighted in, the gun gets hot, metal does move when heated,so your shot will move too, as your friend did said, also when sighting in the rife is dirty, not clean as the first shot, so Before I go into the field, I fire a fouling shot to be ready,and with my hunting rifles I only take four shells, and a pistol with 50 rounds, just in case[}:)] So shoot a fouling shot and let cool two min. then shoot again and see what it is. if you git good grouping with 2 min with shots you know its the barrel, and the only thing to do is put a heavy conture barrle on your rifle if you need to blast somethig over and over, as I said the first shot is most important, this year I shot a 5x4 mule deer at 325 Yards, down hill with a 10 mph cross wind, shooting a 325 wsm, 180 grain tsx and 66 grains of h4350, one shot to the heart, just as planed.and you think an 06 kicks you should shoot my 45-70 off a bench with my t-rex load 500 grain slug and 45g of 3031[B)][:(!] you could also look into having your barrel cryo. treated and lapped,as it will relax the steel,as hammer forged steel has streses in it, had this done to my 6br with a hart tube and it helped alot, I shoot it as fast as bolt gun can for 7 to 8 shots, then cleaned, my best 5 shot group was .098 at 200 yards,its a bench gun with no conture barrle, my 325 cant come close to this as after 5 shots its of 1" or so to upper right, but three shots an it less than 1" just some thig to think about James 0 -
I hate to jump in at the back end, but I will.
Remington still makes one of the best out of the box barrels. But as a custom barrel maket once told me a long time ago: "You can take a blank (bar), cut it in half to make two barrels out of it, one will win matches and the other will shoot like crap." Barrel making has come a long way since then.
It sounds like you may have a flaw in your barrel. After shooting two shots the copper may be filling in an imperfetion. It's not the end of the world. You can lap the barrel with a number of different products. Tubbs makes one of the best ones on the market and it's easy to use. It may be the problem and it can't hurt if done right.
Sounds like you have a nice rifle, buy a good scope for it.0 -
Normally a BARREL group does not just shift 2 inchs sideways all at once, cold to warm or hot! Usually the group will walk or string if it's a barrel heating problem or the barrel being stressed! Sounds kinda like you have a bedding, barrel floating problem or the scope area maybe!
We are still telling you to get another scope for a test! You can get a set of Weaver bases and rings at wally world for less than $20! (Note that I said WEAVER, do not get the cheap weaver STYLE which are clones and inferior! (stay with the WEAVER name)The weaver style stuff is what has gave WEAVER scope mounts a bad rap over the years! Weaver mounts are some of the best for the money when correctly applied! When I hear someone say they don't like weaver mounts for a Remington 700, I immediately know they don't know what they are doing! See if you can dig up any kind of scope and do the test!
You can also test the barrel for floating by sliding a dollar bill down the barrel channel! If it's floating it will be free both with hot barrel and a cold barrel!
Now you need to realize that we are only talking about approx .002 inchs of shift for 2 inchs at 100 yards! I give you one other thing to kick around! Search on the internet and at Brownells about glass bedding the action and floating the barrel. Do both the Tang, rear and the recoil lug and 2 inchs or so forward of the recoil lug with brownells acraglass gel! If you want to check the existing wood to metal for binding place a micrometer caliper at the front of the stock at about the sling attachement and loosen and tighten the front recoil stock screw while the rear tang screw stays tight! If you see the caliper moving ANY the action is warping into the stock as you tighten the screws! (keep in mind that each .001 that the caliper moves will be approx 1 inch shift at 100 yards! The caliper should remain completely dead if you ever want to expect a non-creeping point of impact! I glass bed all guns dead by doing this! If you see the caliper moving, simply start adding shims at the front behind the recoil lug which usually correct the warpage, if not shim the rear tang! I like to use the aluminum roof flashing or you can cut shims from a aluminum beer can and re-test! After you have found the dead point, even after glass bedding, skin bed with the shim in place to make the action dead! Afterwards you can completely remove and re-install a stock and the gun will remain at POI or within normally 1/2 inch at 100 yards!
You are getting a good lesson at tuning a rifle so stay calm as you are close!
You will also find that fine tuning a reload will come next, unless you are real lucky and hit a good accurate the first time!0 -
Let me first say that you guys are GREAT! No really, I am learning a lot from each and everyone one of you. Very Much appreciate all the scenario's that are laid out for me to try and inspect.
None of you fella's have seen it for yourself so I know its very hard for you to narrow down. This just a great place to get feedback from Pro's out here!
With that said, I am studying the suggestions with Remingtongeo & Okie with awe. This is looking more and more like I am getting out of my understanding. I have many skills and attributes but this may be above my pay grade. Okie made a good point about it stringing a series of shots instead of just jumping. What is really sad is I bought a HIGH dollar scope to avoid these problems and now its in question. I have a few cheapies sitting around here but I sure hate to screw with it before deer season next Saturday.
I did have a weaver base and scope on it for about a week but never really tried it out. (My mistake) I was looking to fire it with a nicer scope and didn't want to waste ammo. After Deer season I will pull it apart and start all over.
The other modifications that you mentioned (Okie and Remington) I may do but leave it to professionals. Any great suggestions of people who are top notch and trustworthy to do this? I don't mind paying for it if the end result is an accurate rifle that looks Good.
What about my $800 scope? Do you think its about time to ditch it?
Do you believe maybe the recoil is messing with the accuracy of it?
Read an article that some scope just can't handle the recoil. I just thought it was a good scope from the reviews I had read with the bonus feature of a rangefinder.
Brad0 -
Don't ditch the scope; at least not yet. You want to try that scope on a rifle of known accuracy AND try a proven scope on your problem rifle.
If the scope isn't the problem, bedding is the next place I'd look. Take the action out of the stock and put a thin coat of bedding black (or black paste shoe polish) on the barrel. Put it back together, tighten the screws, maybe even fire a couple of rounds, then take it apart again and you get a better idea of where your bedding is.0 -
RCrosby is correct about checking the bedding if the scope test still indicates the same issues! You are close enough for hunting season! Go kill a big-un!
Also keep in mind on the dial capiper test that I mentioned that if the inletting is too deep (top or bottom of the wood) the magazine box will be pushing up against the bottom of the action and cause the micrometer to crawl! (just add a shim washer UNDER the floorplates back and front screws to get some relief!
The micrometer test is one of the final tests of all to see if all is well even after glass bedding! If turning the front recoil screw causes the micrometer readings to change, this also indicates that the gun's POI is changing with the torque of the screw, which is not desirable! When you get it dead you can remove and re-install the stock with little if any change in POI at 100 yds! (keep in mind that the barrel is floating at the area of the dial caliper, therefore you cannot apply and finger closing pressure to the jaws of the caliper or you will be warping the barrel inwards and getting a false reading! (you can try this before you start taking readings!
You can do the micrometer test by yourself after few practice runs! (may have to get a helper at first until you get familiar with the procedure!
Make sure the HOLLOW GROUND screwdriver fits the front recoil real good because you will be working with one hand holding the dial caliper and the other loosening and tightening the recoil screw with the gun laying on a towel on a table!
Good Luck to You!0 -
One last update.
Got out and shot it again and decided its doable for this deer season.
It once more shot the same pattern,2 dead center and third fourth off to the right. I didn't do the caliper thing because I figure that I simply don't know what I am doing. I did however find someone who is going to do some serious work on it for me after this season is over.
So what all should I ask for him to do. From this topic I learned lapping the barrel, bedding the action, and wasn't there something I heard about freezing the barrel? Forgot what that is called.
But I will get it fixed one way or another.
Thanks again for all the helpful advice. Learned a lot just off this one topic!
Best to you,
Brad0 -
I have not read this entire thread so please forgive me if this has already been stated. from what you describe, I believe your first guess is right. I believe your barrel is heating up and making contact inside the barrel channel. Steel expands as it gets hot; so many thousandths of an inch, per inch, per degree. As you can see the barrel gets longer then it gets thicker as it heats up because it is longer than it is thick to begin with. I would free float the barrel and see if your problem disappears. 0 -
sounds like imperfect bedding or the barrel still makes contact with the stock after it warms up.
how close is the stock to the barrel?0 -
JustC, That does make sense. When it was warm I couldn't get a dollar down it between the stock and barrel past the 4" mark. The gunsmith that had it was suppose to have fixed it and evidently didn't.
It just way to late to do anything about it now as deer season is next Saturday. But after the season is over I have found a guy that should be able to take care of it. I could go in there with a dremel myself but I just have no idea what I am doing. Hate to screw it all up.
So the saga continues until then. Will treat the rifle like a double barrel and only shoot twice. (if needed) Hopefully if its only one deer I am shooting at I won't need the follow up shot!
Best
Brad0 -
clownboy:
This may have been covered above, but have you checked the muzzle crown? If the crown was not cut properly, or if it has been damaged in any way, it can affect the accuracy of the rifle dramatically. You may be able to evaluate the crown with a magnifying glass, a cotton swab, and other means to determine if there are gouges or rough edges.
I have had the crowns redone on many of my rifles, usually costing about $45 at my gunsmith.0 -
Would I have a tight group though if the crown was mangled?
A refresher of how it shoots:
First two shots tight together and 3rd 4th 5th off to the right together about 2 to 4inches away from the first shots. Seems to be consistent on that pattern.
Thanks,
Brad0 -
Yes, I agree that if your rifle shows that pattern repeatedly, then it is not likely a crown problem. 0 -
so are you cleaning the rifle after your 5th 6th shot and shooting it again? or is it just from the heat? what I am saying you could be tring to sight in on a clean barrle and as it fouls, it shoots to the right? as I shoot a flyer then sight in, as it dose make diffrence on point of impact, or dose it not group vary good no matter what, after shooting when its warm? 0 -
RedDog,
Doesn't seem to make a difference if the rifle is cleaned or not.
First 2 groups are dead center then they move right after that. At that point the Barrel is very warm and I have to allow it to cool to return shooting.
Brad0 -
quote:Originally posted by clownboy
RedDog,
Doesn't seem to make a difference if the rifle is cleaned or not.
First 2 groups are dead center then they move right after that. At that point the Barrel is very warm and I have to allow it to cool to return shooting.
Brad
improper bedding.0 -
JustC nailed it earlier barrel still touching when it heats. Use a marking compound lipstick if nothing else and lightly coat barrel, place it in stock and torque it down then remove and look on barrel and stock for contact. If nothing shows do it again and shoot your group and remove and check for contact. Use a dowel and sandpaper to open the area of contact. This is quick and easy with a little patience. Good Luck. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by blackmesarifleco
JustC nailed it earlier barrel still touching when it heats. Use a marking compound lipstick if nothing else and lightly coat barrel, place it in stock and torque it down then remove and look on barrel and stock for contact. If nothing shows do it again and shoot your group and remove and check for contact. Use a dowel and sandpaper to open the area of contact. This is quick and easy with a little patience. Good Luck.
quote:Originally posted by blackmesarifleco
JustC nailed it earlier barrel still touching when it heats. Use a marking compound lipstick if nothing else and lightly coat barrel, place it in stock and torque it down then remove and look on barrel and stock for contact. If nothing shows do it again and shoot your group and remove and check for contact. Use a dowel and sandpaper to open the area of contact. This is quick and easy with a little patience. Good Luck.
You can do this! Just take a wooden or steel dowel rod and wrap some 100 to 220 grit sandpaper around the dowel (If it needs to be larger just add more layers of wrapped sandpaper (have the dowel about 6-8 inchs long and a diameter of about 1/2 to 5/8 inch) You can also find the tight spot by using a piece of paper about 1-2 inchs wide and about 4-6 inchs long and gently insert the paper into the SIDES of the BARREL channel and you can actually feel the tight spots with the paper. (most likely since the gunsmith tried to get it floating, it's probably only gently touching in one small area and only needs just minor wood removal which you can do and not harm anything! You can place a piece of masking tape on the side of the stock by the barrel and mark on the tape the area that needs some relief!
You may have to get about 3 sheets of paper clearance in the wood around the barrel due to the gun (recoil lug area) not being glass bedded, because each time you remove the stock, the recoil lug area MAY re-anchor in a slightly different place, which would allow the barrel to touch the side of the barrel channel! Without the glass bedding you might try inserting the paper folded about three times at the outer end of the barrel channel while tightening the front recoil screw so as to keep the action and barrel centered in the barrel channel then remove the paper after tightening the screws! I do this when glass bedding to keep the barrel CENTERED into the channel as the glass (epoxy) is drying!0 -
Thanks Guy's.
I promise to give this a try after deer season. If I screw it up before the season I will be kicking myself the rest of the year. But it does sound like something I can do. I wonder if instead of the dowel rod though if I should use a dremel? Just sounds like it would be easier with that.
Best.
Brad0 -
dowel and patience make a nice even cut,..a dremel makes gouges as it is not a linear tool but rather a "spot grinder" 0 -
JustC is correct! Do not try the dremel! Just use the dowel and you will be ok! I use a dowel, even though I have several barrel inletting tools for such! After season, you might just try loosening the TWO action screws tang and recoil, take a dollar bill (a $100 bill works better[:)]) and fold it for APPROXIMATELY three layers or use three sheets of paper about 1 inch wide and 6 inchs long and insert it crossways at the sling stud area and tighten the screws and remove the paper shim! this is keeping the barrel centered in the barrel channel while the stock screws are tightened! (You may not have to remove any wood if you do this, because your gun now has some side slack at the recoil lug area and will possibly make the barrel rub the wood on ONE side in a few places!
The reason a $100 bill is better is you normally won't forget to remove it and put it back in your pocket when completed![:D]
The paper can be slide out if tight by just gently pressing the END of the barrel down against the floor and remove the paper! You will be surprised at how easily the barrel will flex for the first approx .010 or so!0 -
Thanks for the tips. That was very helpful and will give it a try.
Just an update: Killed a 10 point buck last night with it. It was a one shot kill with him running only 75 yards and collapsing. That really convinced me I made a good choice on the 30-06. Will probably retire my .243 from deer hunting after all this.
Brad0
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