My 44mag results....
Info...
New Marlin 1894 (50rds through it before this session)
20" Barrel
Burris Fullfield II 2-7x35 Scope, Burris Steel rings, on Steel Warne Bases.
Shooting from a RCBS RASS bench @ 50yds.
I bought a box of American Eagle 240gr JHP's to get the scope zeroed in, then had 4 different hand loads to try.
The 4 loads consisted of Nosler Sporting HG bullets in 240gr, CCI 350 primers, Alliant 2400, Remington cases all trimmed to the same length, primer pockets clean, and EXACT SAME OAL.
#1 - 19gr 2400
#2 - 19.5gr 2400
#3 - 21gr 2400 (Shown as max in 5 different manuals)
#4 - 21.5gr 2400 (only shooting if load #3 showed no pressure signs)
......
Ok, time to shoot. I loaded the gun with the factory ammo. First round was way (2') high at 50yds. Off the target actually, my buddy saw it go into the backstop above. Dialed the scope down and fired again, I was on the cardboard but still high and left. Made the adjustments, and fired again. I was near the 3" sticker I was shooting at so I fired 2 more shots. Those three shots basically grouped about 12". We continued adjusting and firing, letting the barrel cool, cleaned the bore, strapped the rifle down, etc. No 3 round group got any tighter than 10".
We were dumbfounded.
I decided to try the handloads....
First load, exact same results as the factory ammo. Essentially NO groupings.
Second load - same.
3rd load was the listed max load. We saw the group tighten up to about 6-7". Still at 50yds. No pressure signs of any sort, so we decided to try the 4th load
Shooting the 4th load, we saw the groups continue to get tighter, about 4.5-5". No signs of pressure so we moved up another step.
Now we're shooting loads at a full grain over listed max. Groups really started coming in, and consistently.
I loaded 8 more at 22gr. First three rounds grouped about 4". Next set tightened up to 3.5". Still showing NO signs of pressure so we went up another .5gr.
This is the load the gun REALLY likes, now at 22.5gr of 2400. First two rounds cut each other, and the 3rd was a hair above them. Even still showing no signs of pressure, no cylinder marks, no flattened primers (actually the factory Federal load showed primers more flattented than these), nothing. We tossed another 20 rounds downrange, 100yd groups were 1.75"!!! Then we decided this was the load that the gun liked. Then we got out the Chronograph.
I'm pushing this bullet at very nearly 2000fps. 1976fps. We shot some Milk jugs filled with water at 50yds and they were exploding. At 100yds they were still violent, but it gave us the answer we were looking for, "No shoulder shots under 100yds!"
What could I do to change this, or should I? I know I could/should go with the Nosler Partition or Barnes XPB, but those are outrageously priced. Should I change the load, or stick with it and concentrate on boiler room ONLY shots?
New Marlin 1894 (50rds through it before this session)
20" Barrel
Burris Fullfield II 2-7x35 Scope, Burris Steel rings, on Steel Warne Bases.
Shooting from a RCBS RASS bench @ 50yds.
I bought a box of American Eagle 240gr JHP's to get the scope zeroed in, then had 4 different hand loads to try.
The 4 loads consisted of Nosler Sporting HG bullets in 240gr, CCI 350 primers, Alliant 2400, Remington cases all trimmed to the same length, primer pockets clean, and EXACT SAME OAL.
#1 - 19gr 2400
#2 - 19.5gr 2400
#3 - 21gr 2400 (Shown as max in 5 different manuals)
#4 - 21.5gr 2400 (only shooting if load #3 showed no pressure signs)
......
Ok, time to shoot. I loaded the gun with the factory ammo. First round was way (2') high at 50yds. Off the target actually, my buddy saw it go into the backstop above. Dialed the scope down and fired again, I was on the cardboard but still high and left. Made the adjustments, and fired again. I was near the 3" sticker I was shooting at so I fired 2 more shots. Those three shots basically grouped about 12". We continued adjusting and firing, letting the barrel cool, cleaned the bore, strapped the rifle down, etc. No 3 round group got any tighter than 10".
We were dumbfounded.
I decided to try the handloads....
First load, exact same results as the factory ammo. Essentially NO groupings.
Second load - same.
3rd load was the listed max load. We saw the group tighten up to about 6-7". Still at 50yds. No pressure signs of any sort, so we decided to try the 4th load
Shooting the 4th load, we saw the groups continue to get tighter, about 4.5-5". No signs of pressure so we moved up another step.
Now we're shooting loads at a full grain over listed max. Groups really started coming in, and consistently.
I loaded 8 more at 22gr. First three rounds grouped about 4". Next set tightened up to 3.5". Still showing NO signs of pressure so we went up another .5gr.
This is the load the gun REALLY likes, now at 22.5gr of 2400. First two rounds cut each other, and the 3rd was a hair above them. Even still showing no signs of pressure, no cylinder marks, no flattened primers (actually the factory Federal load showed primers more flattented than these), nothing. We tossed another 20 rounds downrange, 100yd groups were 1.75"!!! Then we decided this was the load that the gun liked. Then we got out the Chronograph.
I'm pushing this bullet at very nearly 2000fps. 1976fps. We shot some Milk jugs filled with water at 50yds and they were exploding. At 100yds they were still violent, but it gave us the answer we were looking for, "No shoulder shots under 100yds!"
What could I do to change this, or should I? I know I could/should go with the Nosler Partition or Barnes XPB, but those are outrageously priced. Should I change the load, or stick with it and concentrate on boiler room ONLY shots?
0
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If you keep UP loading your cases, your first sign of over pressure might be a destroyed rifle.
NEVER exceed the manufacturer's MAXIMUM.
You didn't mention what cartridge you are loading, but it sounds like 44 mag or is it a 444?.
You need to find another powder that will give you the same results.0 -
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
If you keep UP loading your cases, your first sign of over pressure might be a destroyed rifle.
NEVER exceed the manufacturer's MAXIMUM.
You didn't mention what cartridge you are loading, but it sounds like 44 mag or is it a 444?.
You need to find another powder that will give you the same results.
The title of the thread says "44Mag"...um.......0 -
quote:Originally posted by cubslover
The title of the thread says "44Mag"...um.......
That's all you have to say? I guess because I got to this thread from your thread in GD (Handloaders, help needed...), I'm the dummy, right?
I guess a simple "thanks for the info" would have been too hard for you.0 -
The problem is, the rifle will not group these bullets unless they are running around 2000fps. Do you know of another powder for use with the 44mag that will give those velocities? 4227? nope, H110, maybe, but you'd be running above max loads as well.
Oh yeah....
thanks for the info [;)]0 -
Blue Dot, Winchester 296 to name just two. I'm guessing you didn't start your reloads 10% UNDER the max to see how your load would group.
Why not work up a load using a 300 grain XTP?0 -
I mentioned that I started at 19.5gr on my first load. Just shy of 10% under.
Blue dot won't come close in velocity and Win 296 is identical to H110.
Lil Gun may get me there, but it's pressures are much higher than the 2400 or H110.
Curious(seriously), what would a 300gr bullet gain me as far as the rifle grouping it decently?
I did look back. The 21gr of 2400 was listed as a pistol load. I don't have a book that gives me a rifle load with that powder. I did see that Bpost said he saw 22.3gr of 2400 as a max load in one of his books.0 -
Lymans 48th reloading guide sez....240gr JHP, 20" barrel,24.5gr H110, CCI 350 primer, OAL 1.610 will equal 1745fps they do not give a pressure rating and this is the max load listed. as you can tell by my screen name I reload for 44mag. I only shoot revolver at this time in 44mag. I have found that many of my combos for 44mag(8" barrel) can vary greatly with different powders/weight. My pet load with 44mag is 16.5gr. blue dot powder, 240gr nosler sporting bullet, WLP primer, OAL 1.600, heavy crimp. this is .5gr over max load in the lyman manual for blue dot but I get my best results out of it, very slight signs of pressure issues(slightly flatened primer). Off a bag at 25 yards I can get sub 1" groups. I have put well over 5000 rds of this load thru a Taurus M444(raging bull) revolver, and will continue to do so. Took me lots of time and money to determine this for this gun. keep "playing around with combos" and you will find the one the gun likes...and I do believe that each gun will respond uniquely to a load developed for it. I have definately found this to be true in 40S&W. The reason I posted this is you are looking for 2000fps, the first load mentioned gets ya close..just remember measure twice cut once....if ya haven't exploded a back strap ya now what I mean. good luck and be SAFE> reloader44mag...............Oh yea..practice..practice ...practice[;)] 0 -
Thanks for the info.
I'm not looking for 2000fps, it just happens to be the velocity of the load that the gun will shoot. The only load it will group.0 -
Cubs.. actually the load in my first post that I stated for a 20" barrel is according to the Lyman manual was the most accurate for the 240gr bullet they tested which was a speer 240grJHP #4453. H110 is around $20.00 a pound here, give it a try. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by reloader44mag
Cubs.. actually the load in my first post that I stated for a 20" barrel is according to the Lyman manual was the most accurate for the 240gr bullet they tested which was a speer 240grJHP #4453. H110 is around $20.00 a pound here, give it a try.
I have a pound at home. I just don't have much time before Rifle season starts (one week actually). I am kind of stuck with this load this year. Working up another load is pretty much out of the question.0 -
Well if thats the case use the load ya got and hope for the best. good luck 0 -
As far as using a 300 grain bullet, you can get the same energy at a slower velocity (F will always equal MA)and still end up with the same result (meat in the freezer). The 300 EXP is longer then the 240 grain and might stabilize with your slow rifling better then the 240. 0 -
in my ruger carbine with a 18 inch barrel the best load i have found an still us 24grains of h110 with 240 grain hornady xtp with a 4 shot group of 1.25@50 yards 0 -
It's been awhile but as I recall, Elmer's pet load for a revolver was 22 grains of 2400 behind a 240 grain SWC. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by glabray
It's been awhile but as I recall, Elmer's pet load for a revolver was 22 grains of 2400 behind a 240 grain SWC.
I've been shooting that load for 30 years. It is a tack driver for sure and has never ever shown signs of excess pressure.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
quote:Originally posted by glabray
It's been awhile but as I recall, Elmer's pet load for a revolver was 22 grains of 2400 behind a 240 grain SWC.
I've been shooting that load for 30 years. It is a tack driver for sure and has never ever shown signs of excess pressure.
Good to know. A gas check'd SWC I assume?
I feel confident that the pressures are not dangerous by any means, it's just the velocities of the bullet on game that scares me.0 -
Google Elmer Keith 44 mag loads -
44 special +P+ 250 gr LSWC over 17.5 grains of 2400 = 1700 f/s
44 Magnum 300 gr LSWC over 21.5 grains of H110 = 1300 f/s
44 Magnum 250 gr LSWC over 22.0 grains of 2400
Lyman #429421 (Keith) is a hard cast Lead NON Gas Checked
nice disclaimer: Just a short word of caution: These are all MAXIMUM loads! If you choose to load any of these start low and work up gradually. We do not need to give the anti-gunners any ammunition by blowing ourselves up. Since I have no control over your loading practices I take no responsibility for your safety. These loads were assembled with Winchester primers and brass and hard cast bullets.0 -
Ok so you opened up a can of worms. You know you can load a 44mag for a pistol load or a rifle load. If you look at the rifle loads what you are loading are not really overloaded. You just can't put these in a pistol. Also rifle loads are only loaded as max loads (no ice cream loads here). Also if you shoot h110 loaded for a pistol you just add about 400fps and you get your rifle speeds. Remember never load anything else but max loads and h110 or 296 type powders in your rifle. With my model 1894 I can get 4 inch groups at 75yds with iron sights using 296 powder with 23.5grains and pistol fps of 1475 or 1875 for rifle. So what I have done is load max loads for my 44mag pistol in 296 and this way I can shoot these rounds in my 1894 also. If you load rounds designed for 44rifles you might accidently shoot in pistol and have a major incident. 0 -
hello;
you problem is magnum large pistol primer with 2400.
shot the loads you are showing with 2400 without any problems in a ruger super black. used cci large pistol primers. got a ruger 44 rifle and using the same loads but used cci magnum large pistol primers. a garbage can lid was safe at 50 yards.
in a fit of stupid got rid of the ruger rifle and got a marlin 44. fired the marlin 44 mag rifle and was not able to open the action. opps, high pressure. the light bulb went off about the primers. went back to just large pistol primers. accuracy returned and i was even able to cycle the action.
suggest you try large pistol primers and not magnum primers.
rp0 -
quote:Originally posted by rp85
hello;
you problem is magnum large pistol primer with 2400.
shot the loads you are showing with 2400 without any problems in a ruger super black. used cci large pistol primers. got a ruger 44 rifle and using the same loads but used cci magnum large pistol primers. a garbage can lid was safe at 50 yards.
in a fit of stupid got rid of the ruger rifle and got a marlin 44. fired the marlin 44 mag rifle and was not able to open the action. opps, high pressure. the light bulb went off about the primers. went back to just large pistol primers. accuracy returned and i was even able to cycle the action.
suggest you try large pistol primers and not magnum primers.
rp
I don't have ANY pressure signs, and my accuracy is great with this load.
It seem's my problem isn't being understood. I have a load that shoots very well with no pressure signs and great accuracy (3 rounds cut each other @ 70yds), but the bullet is moving 2000fps. I wanted to dial the velocity back a bit but doubt I could maintain accuracy. I also wonder about this bullet moving at such velocity holding together on game. We'll see this weekend.
I thought about going to CCI 300's, but wonder if they can light off that case full of 2400 in 10 degree weather?0 -
20.5 grains of 2400, 240 grain hornady xtp, marlin 44mag. rifle (20") barrel gives me a speed of 1600fps. 2000fps seems a bit high? 0 -
One BIG issue with many 44 mag rifles is the very slow rifling twist rate (1 turn in 38") vs. that common to revolvers (1 turn in 20"). The result is that the rifles cannot stabilize heavy bullets at low velocity like the revolvers can. Your Marlin may perform much better with bullets that are lighter than 240g - especially if you want lower velocity loads.
The famous 44/40 relied on bullets weighing ~ 200 gr at ~ 1200 ft/sec.0 -
here is my pet load for my ruger carbine.24 grains of h110 with a 240 hornadyxtp. 1inch in 50 yards 0 -
Long as we're talking about the Keith load I did a series of chronograph tests a few years back. I had long used 21 grains/2400 with a 240 grain hard cast (no gas check) and CCI 350 shot in one of my SBH's.
Tried upping the charge to 22 grains but with CCI 300's. Velocity and accuracy were virtually the same and I have used the 2 loads interchangeably ever since.0 -
During the 70's and early 80's I got into
slh and handgun hunting. My gun was a M29
8 3/8" 44mag Smith. I wanted all the speed
I could get. So I happened upon 180gr Super
Vel ctgs. Had a friend who owned a chrono
when they first came out and this load was
running 1803fps. My buddy had a Marlin 44
levergun and they hit 2300+ from his 24"
barrel. I killed a couple deer with my 4
Smith but the recoil was pure torture. So
I started using a load some of the guys had
for Silh. Was 9 1/2gr Unique over 240 gr swc
Really nice load. Killed deer as good as
the Super Vel. Hurt a lot less too. The
Marlin didnt like the lead bullet load at
all. That Marlin liked lots of speed. The
more we put in jacketed loads the better it liked it.[:D]0 -
I recently purchased a 1894 SS in 44 mag and I am amazed at what it can do. I used a fairly hot revolver load to kill a very large whitetail buck at a measured 130 yards and a good sized doe at almost 100 yards. Both deer were hit through the lungs and had broken legs. The deer both went down immediately. My rifle loves this load: 200 gr. XTP, 29.5 grains of H110, Win LP primer, Remington case. Across my chrono the bullet is running 2100 fps. But the thing that sealed the deal with me is the load prints 3-shot groups of an inch at 100 yds off the bench rountinly! 0
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