Problem with primers backing out.
.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
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Joe
Just because you read in the "Weekly World News" that the earth is flat, Elvis lives, Bat Boy is advising G.W.B. on Iraq and the US never landed a man on the moon, dosn't mean it's true.
Work out the metalurgy for yourself.
BTW, your hero, Parker O. Ackley, often loaded into the 70-75,000 psi range also.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
Joe
Just because you read in the "Weekly World News" that the earth is flat, Elvis lives, Bat Boy is advising G.W.B. on Iraq and the US never landed a man on the moon, dosn't mean it's true.
Work out the metalurgy for yourself.
BTW, your hero, Parker O. Ackley, often loaded into the 70-75,000 psi range also.
Speer has done similar testing with similar results. Why do you think SAAMI, allows for primer leakage on proof rounds? I don't do metalurgy, and you do not either. I trust well equipped labs to do it for me. The 45 acp+P proof round-33,000psi average. 38spl +P 27,500psi proof round (again maximum average) we are talking MORE than 250% higher, this is crazy. I would rather have you work out the metalurgy, and expalin why ANSI/SAAMI has not idea what they are doing, and should raise all cartridge operating pressures to at or near 80,000psi. I am sure they would love to hear from a true expert. I have posted facts from reconized experts, you are a self appointed expert with no facts other than- I know a guy....
regarding P.O Ackley, he loaded a hell of a lot hotter than that, read a little it won't hurt you. He loaded until he destroyed guns to find out when thing happen, how strong actions are etc., not because he advocated loading to destruction, but rather to deliver real data not "I know a guy.." type bull.0 -
"What we've got here,...is failure to communicate" "some men, you just can't reach"
Cool hand luke0 -
quote:Originally posted by MEMPHISJOE
quote:Originally posted by idahoducker
Besides some guy having nothing to say about it in his book, what exactly is wrong with the RCBS mic? I did some research and found a lot of good user reviews.
I guess you could call Zediker "some guy", as you could David Tubb, they have done a book or two togeather. But yea if you haven't heard of them, they don't really count. But you are not alone, many on the thread have never heard of P.O.Ackley, and if they have, don't think much of his work, he just does not come up to their standards.
12 out of 15 customer reviews at Cabelas.com give good or excellent results with the RCBS tool and include why they do or don't like it.
51 out of 60 at midwayusa.com gave good or excellent with explanations.
Two negatives here (one just a quote) with no explanation even when specifically asked for one.
Are you here to help or just bother people?0 -
One more try.
1. Is it a problem to have primers back out .008 with every load I've tried? That's 35 - 38.5 grains of IMR 4320. They all do it. And while I'm not an expert I can't see any signs of anything else wrong. Whatever the answer I will find out what's causing it, I'd just like to know if it's an inherently bad thing to have happen. When this rifle puts 5 shots inside an inch, even with the primer issue, I'm tempted not to change anything.
2. Can anybody say what's wrong with the RCBS tool in question? Personal experiences would be the most helpful please.0 -
idahoducker,
First of all let me apologize for the direction that your thread has taken. Here is a wrap up of the information that you need:
"1. Is it a problem to have primers back out .008 with every load I've tried? That's 35 - 38.5 grains of IMR 4320. They all do it. And while I'm not an expert I can't see any signs of anything else wrong. Whatever the answer I will find out what's causing it, I'd just like to know if it's an inherently bad thing to have happen. When this rifle puts 5 shots inside an inch, even with the primer issue, I'm tempted not to change anything."
Your problem is one of headspace and light loads. It is NOT a condition that should be allowed since it can lead to problems with your brass and failure of that brass at some point. The problem can be addressed and fixed as JustC and others have pointed out by adjusting your resizing. Then everything will be back to normal and your accuracy should not suffer.
"2. Can anybody say what's wrong with the RCBS tool in question? Personal experiences would be the most helpful please."
No one needs to tell you that there is anything wrong with the Precision Mic. As I stated earlier, we all have varying opinions about gear and we don't always agree with each other. I have used both and the Precision Mic works. But most of us here, including me, use the Stoney Point tool and it works for us. Others I know use the Precision Mic and they do just fine. It's like anything else, use what you're comfortable with and what works for you and your procedures.
Now adjust your dies and go enjoy some shooting! Let us know how it works out.
Best.0 -
MEMPHISJOE,
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
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quote:Originally posted by nononsense
MEMPHISJOE,
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
Heheeh, non, I love that picture![;)]0 -
jtmarine0831,
It's appropriate to the concept. [:D]
There was another line of type under 'Trolls' defining the term but it wouldn't have made it past the auto-censor at all.
Best.0 -
Nonsense you are correct, I was wrong, and the others> I would like to correct my self here:
do not use stoney point gauges or case gauges: get a RCBS they are great, a good way to buy loading equipment is to read what Cabelas says! ( need to think about that one, because that would be quoting a source)
do not worry about pressure or SAAMI or any other pressure data, you can go to 80,000psi on any cartridge any time.
there are 3 sets of pressure limits established by SAAMI for the 257 Roberts, for old guns, middleaged guns, and new guns I guess?
High pressure will not cause primer pockets to expand, or loose primers etc unless you are well above 80,000 psi on any cartridge.
If you know a guy that tells you something, it is always better than reading it from a noted expert, and quoting their work..far better.
Don't worry about specs, if the round fits fire it.
If you post something technical, and you are asked for your reference,ignore it- someone might catch on that what you posted was crap, if you posted something like well I can't find it, just ignore it!
Make sweeping statements like 80,000psi on any cartridge! You don't need to back it up, it is more fun that way!
again thanks for setting me straight on these things!!0 -
You are a TROLL, LEAVE! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
You are a TROLL, LEAVE!
Still waiting for the 3 sets of 257Roberts data (SAAMI) YOU QUOTED, MADE UP, BETWEEN DRINKS, WHATEVER, BUT JUST POST THEM, YOU ARE THE ONLY GUY THAT HAS THE SPECIAL "BAT" LINE TO SAAMI, HOW HARD WOULD THIS BE, IF THEY EXIST, IF YOU DID NOT JUST PULL THEM OUT OF YOU &*^% wHAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Funny how on other boards, no one seems to think you can load to 80,000psi any cartridge without primer promblems, just you and your no reading friends, I really liked the one about trying it in an on Trapdoor! Good sense of humor those guys have.0 -
You are a TROLL and a LIAR, LEAVE. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
You are a TROLL and a LIAR, LEAVE.
7/30 8:59 you posted some rant regarding what I don't know is that SAAMI has set up three different pressures for loading 257 roberts, anyone can read the thread and find out who is a liar, and who is not. They may feel sorry for an old guy who can't remember where is drink is,but non the less, you are the liar in black and white. They do not exist, you just made them up.LIAR LIAR. oF COURSE YOU WOULD WANT ME TO LEAVE, AS HAVING ME POINT OUT YOUR BLACK AND WHITE LIES, ON THE EXACT POST ON THIS THREAD, MAY BE A LITTLE MORE THAN YOU CAN TAKE, HAVING TO ADMIT YOU ARE A LIAR, THAT KNOW HOW TO POST WITH BIG RED LETTERS, MAYBE YOU CAN GO DOWN TO THE FIREHOUSE AND THEY'D LET AN OLD FART WEAR A BIG RED HAT FOR A FEW MINUTES...OUTTINGS FOR SENIORS IS HARD TO PLAN.0 -
You are a TROLL and a LIAR. LEAVE. 0 -
Ran in to this type situation once where the chamber on an older rifle developed an eroded ring in that area between where the mouth of the case ends and the rifling leade begins. The mouth of any case that was slightly over length expanded into this ring and prevented the case from initially setting back but the spent primer did. This might explain why your factory loads didn't do this and your handloads did. Keep your cases trimmed and don't set the shoulder back in the sizing operation keep it tight against the chamber wall. Could also be any other lateral imperfection in the chamber doing this that your polishing didn't get. Try "scoping" it out. Hang in there Joe, I think there's a Bernard Montgomery Reincarnation about. 0 -
actually, I posted the 80K psi range evidence, which was my experience, not that of nononsense. You can post your experiences, and you can DEBATE information presented. If it happens to be accompanied by computer proof, or even scanned in print outs from the chrono printer, then that is accpeatble. HOWEVER, if you decide to confront another member or accuse them of lying,..your time is limited here. Present scientific evidence, or be happy to simply disagree.
We should all be so lucky as to have the resources that nononsense has at his disposal. The man can make his own cut rifled barrels if he wants to run an experiment.[:0] He WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY,...he is not a keyboard cowboy (something I find prevalent on the internet).
take a scientific approach, and present information in a non-biased manner. THAT is the purpose of this forum.
And get off the RCBS tool already,..it's boring now.0 -
JustC (you little whipper snapper you [:D]), come on down to the old fogies home, we're having a prune juce party (and I think I can sneek you in). Gertrude is reviving her tassel dance whoo hoo [:D] NoNon is invited too, and we can all swap our hero stories. [:D]
Were would you guess I was at with Tommy, when he smoked a primer [B)] ? First firing of a COW formed case. Hints, 12.5gr over Sierra max for the RUM case (was at 96.0gr), Tommy holds 4gr more water than the RUM does, 200gr SMK set .035 off the lands. NO measurable CHE or PRE and the pocket is only slightly looser than a new case (about what you'd normaly expect after 10 book mas loads). Up to that point the primers had all looked the same, IE slightly flattened.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
JustC (you little whipper snapper you [:D]), come on down to the old fogies home, we're having a prune juce party (and I think I can sneek you in). Gertrude is reviving her tassel dance whoo hoo [:D] NoNon is invited too, and we can all swap our hero stories. [:D]
Were would you guess I was at with Tommy, when he smoked a primer [B)] ? First firing of a COW formed case. Hints, 12.5gr over Sierra max for the RUM case (was at 96.0gr), Tommy holds 4gr more water than the RUM does, 200gr SMK set .035 off the lands. NO measurable CHE or PRE and the pocket is only slightly looser than a new case (about what you'd normaly expect after 10 book mas loads). Up to that point the primers had all looked the same, IE slightly flattened.
I am sure you are tell it like it was, but I doubt, really doubt if you could pull that off with a 7x57, brass just aint that strong.0 -
quote:Originally posted by JustC
actually, I posted the 80K psi range evidence, which was my experience, not that of nononsense. You can post your experiences, and you can DEBATE information presented. If it happens to be accompanied by computer proof, or even scanned in print outs from the chrono printer, then that is accpeatble. HOWEVER, if you decide to confront another member or accuse them of lying,..your time is limited here. Present scientific evidence, or be happy to simply disagree.
We should all be so lucky as to have the resources that nononsense has at his disposal. The man can make his own cut rifled barrels if he wants to run an experiment.[:0] He WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY,...he is not a keyboard cowboy (something I find prevalent on the internet).
take a scientific approach, and present information in a non-biased manner. THAT is the purpose of this forum.
And get off the RCBS tool already,..it's boring now.
I agree with you regarding calling people liars, if you read the thread I believe you will see who started calling liar. I posted what I believe is the lie, there is not three different pressure levels from SAAMI, I am looking at a copy as I write. But you are correct, maybe nonsense, has a new special copy with three in it, if so, as you say post it. Regarding a debate, if I make a statement, iF I or anyone else quotes a technical spec, I believe it is well within normal practice to ask where, one got that info. If I were to state, "remington once made a model 7854 chambered in three special calibers", one might ask, "where are you getting that" what catalog, what year, what calibers etc. If I was then unable or unwilling to back up the wild claim, you may think I was a cowboy, or a drunk, or whatever. Why, because if I actually had a Rem cat with that info, I would post it.
But thanks for pointing out we should not START calling liar,regardless of who we are or what we can do.0 -
Earl Naramore, LTC. USA, FORMERLY Manager, small arms ammunition section, bridgeport ordnance district: chief, small arms division,Hartford ordance district: chief Proof officer, chief inspection division operations officer, and executive officer, Erie Proving Ground, wrote in his super book,PRINCIPLES AND PRACICE OF LODING AMMUNITON. (I will not take out of context, but rather post the entire Paragraph.) " Expanded Primer Pockets. If it is found that fired primers can be pushed out of cses that have been reloaded several times, with very little pressure or that new primers can be seated with only slight pressure, it is a good sign of that the loads used in the cases have been too high. One reloading can cause primer pockets to expand enough to make primers too easy in their seating, or repeated firing at too high pressures can cause a more gradual increase in primer pocket size. Cases so soft that the primer pockets expand or that have primer pockets in which primers do not fit tightly are a very rare occurence in factory loaded ammunition. Try a different lot of primers and if they are still to easy a fit, discard the cases and cut the powder charge a little. Remember that cases are made to stand normal primer pressures and they will do this even with repeated firings, if their maximum premissible pressures are not exceeded. Slight enlargement of primer pockets may or may not be accompanied by primer leaks.
Blown Primers. This condition indicates that pressures are getting up toward a destructive force. The primer pressure becomes so great that it is beyond the strength of the brass in the head of the case and the primer pocket is expanded so much that a fired primer will drop out by itself. This conditon is always accompanied by gas leakage arund the primer and is indicative that the powder charge is much too heavy. This is a dangerous conditon and an indication that
something is radicaly wrong!"
I believe that if you are have a promble with any load-reduce that load, and stay away from anything close to maximum, until such time you ID the problem and get it fixed. Then and only then work back up to a high end load. This is just common sense. No loaded round you are making on your bench is worth getting hurt over, or damaging you weapon.
Earl Naramore's book is quite old, but a very informative piece you'll really enjoy reading, and reading again. I got mine many years ago, and it was a reprint then, but it was published by stackpole books, if anyone is interested. I doubt if anyone would argue that he does not have the background to make the statements that he makes in work.0 -
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
" Read not to contradict and confute: nor to believe and take for granted: not to find talk and discourse: but to weight and consider." FRANCIS BACON
I felt a quote from one of the greats, a man who was in charge of 10,000,000's of rounds, and best ballistic labs in the world, may be of some interest. Usually published works are cited, if they have stood peer review, and the test of time, this is the standard for all scientific publication(s). Earl Naramore's,albeit, somewhat outdated, book, has stood the test of time, I really believe those interested in such things would really enjoy a copy. I am sorry you don't find him credible, but if you get a chance pick up a copy, after you've had a chance to give it a going over, I think you may change your mind regarding the quality of his work.0 -
quote:Originally posted by cotton2
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
" Read not to contradict and confute: nor to believe and take for granted: not to find talk and discourse: but to weight and consider." FRANCIS BACON
I felt a quote from one of the greats, a man who was in charge of 10,000,000's of rounds, and best ballistic labs in the world, may be of some interest. Usually published works are cited, if they have stood peer review, and the test of time, this is the standard for all scientific publication(s). Earl Naramore's,albeit, somewhat outdated, book, has stood the test of time, I really believe those interested in such things would really enjoy a copy. I am sorry you don't find him credible, but if you get a chance pick up a copy, after you've had a chance to give it a going over, I think you may change your mind regarding the quality of his work.
I never said he was not interesting. Julian S. Hatcher (Maj. Gen. Ret.) wrote a lot of greatly informative books and papers too. But; even the most exalted experts in a field are on occasion wrong, time has shown errors in their works. Most of the errors are because we can monitor things better in the age of electronics.
If your assertion is that only HIGH pressures will cause a primer to back out; then you too are as wrong as they were.
It is also noted your lack of response to the last question in my post; a man can change his name but not his feathers.0 -
My assertion is not that only high pressure can cause a primer to backout, by no means. In fact I am in agreement with you regarding low pressure can cause the same thing, and in fact if most likely the reason backing out occures most of the time. I have no problem with that at all. But to limit oneself to only one possible cause of a problem, when others of some repute have seen more than one cause for the same problem, is very limiting indeed. Dismissing out of hand the "fathers" of loading/reloading speaks for itself. No where did I say anything about the only possible cause, nor would I. A chamber that has had, scratch marks removed, most likely would no longer have minimum specs (match chamber), if it had been so cut to start with. As it is an older action, it is quite possible that it is not a new barrel, it may have other problems. Most new barrels freshly chambered and installed by a professional gunsmith, would not be delivered with scratches in the chamber, ones that needed to be "polished" out. And if new, the scratches indicate a poor job by the "smith". I do not know what is causing this mans problems, as you or anyone else that has not had a chance to actually look at the weapons does, we are just speculating on the possible cause(s). Your attack upon me is weird, an unfitting a technical discussion of possible causes. But considering the others you have attacked I am in good company. The two greats of loading and Ammo, will stay great long after you and I are gone. 0 -
COTTON 2-- Why do you think that this bpost guy was attacking you ?
Is he not allowed to speak his mind the same as you are ?0 -
mrbruce. Everyone should be allowed to "speak his mind". I was trying to set the record straigt, I never said, high pressure and high pressure alone, could cause primer back out, enlarged primer pockets, but rather, it was a possible cause. The "giants" of this science, Gen Whelen, LTC Naramore and others do not need to be slighted, we owe alot to these guys, it would take a lot more than they "made a few mistakes", for me to discount their work or their great contibutions. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cotton2
mrbruce. Everyone should be allowed to "speak his mind". I was trying to set the record straigt, I never said, high pressure and high pressure alone, could cause primer back out, enlarged primer pockets, but rather, it was a possible cause. The "giants" of this science, Gen Whelen, LTC Naramore and others do not need to be slighted, we owe alot to these guys, it would take a lot more than they "made a few mistakes", for me to discount their work or their great contibutions.
If we go back to the original post we can see what the question was;
quote:.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
We learn the issue is primers backing out on his handloads. There is no mention of expanded primer pockets, loose primer fit or blown primers. Also note that factory ammo worked "normally". I would think it has been explained Ad infinitum that the most likely cause of a protruding primer from a fired case is low pressure followed by and possibly equally as important; over sizing the cases making them too short for the chamber.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
MEMPHISJOE,
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
Nice use of "pseudo" there nononsense, and picture! You don't see that prefix to often. I hadn't looked at this thread for a while and couldn't figure ot out it got to be so long. It didn't take long to see why, and I didn't even read all of the replies either.0
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