Winchester brass concerns
Hi Guys, just got registerd on the forum page. Here is my first post.
I am looking for feedback on a brass situation I have. I am working a pet load for my new 243 WSSM. The Winchester unfired brass that I've been getting a Cabela's seems be mostly junk. Here's what I mean, upon inspection of the new cases I am finding some have split necks, some have "seams" on the shoulders from the forming process I assume. From a bag of 100 you can expect to cull 30% plus for quality. I've been using wincester brass for along time on my .270, don't ever remember seeing this before.
I have returned several bags to Cabelas but each new bag seems to be about the same. Anyone else having the same problem????
The other issue with the brass is that they all seem to measure on the short end of the specs, or my chamber measures on the long end.I have fired around 65 rounds for load development. I have saved one case from a box of factory loads for my dummy round. It measures out to 1.258", the new fired brass measures all over the place, still averaging around .004" short of the dummy case. I am using Varget powder and CCI benchrest primers. So far my velocity has been around 3600 fps on the low end to 3900 fps on the high end.
The factory load (wincester supreme 130 gr ballistic tips) chrony'd at 3165 fps average for 12 shots. I feel like that eliminated the the idea of not enough pressure to form the cases to the chamber.
So far accuracy has not been what I would expect from this rifle.
Best grouping was 1 1/4" at 100 yds.
Any thoughts/suggestions will be appreciated.
Sorry for the long winded post !!!
I am looking for feedback on a brass situation I have. I am working a pet load for my new 243 WSSM. The Winchester unfired brass that I've been getting a Cabela's seems be mostly junk. Here's what I mean, upon inspection of the new cases I am finding some have split necks, some have "seams" on the shoulders from the forming process I assume. From a bag of 100 you can expect to cull 30% plus for quality. I've been using wincester brass for along time on my .270, don't ever remember seeing this before.
I have returned several bags to Cabelas but each new bag seems to be about the same. Anyone else having the same problem????
The other issue with the brass is that they all seem to measure on the short end of the specs, or my chamber measures on the long end.I have fired around 65 rounds for load development. I have saved one case from a box of factory loads for my dummy round. It measures out to 1.258", the new fired brass measures all over the place, still averaging around .004" short of the dummy case. I am using Varget powder and CCI benchrest primers. So far my velocity has been around 3600 fps on the low end to 3900 fps on the high end.
The factory load (wincester supreme 130 gr ballistic tips) chrony'd at 3165 fps average for 12 shots. I feel like that eliminated the the idea of not enough pressure to form the cases to the chamber.
So far accuracy has not been what I would expect from this rifle.
Best grouping was 1 1/4" at 100 yds.
Any thoughts/suggestions will be appreciated.
Sorry for the long winded post !!!
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Hello IMHO I would send any that you have not loaded back to Cabela's once you have fired them you are on your own. There should be 0% defects on new brass does the headstamp match 243WSSM ? 0 -
Hi, I have returned several hundred pieces unfired brass to the store. Problem is that all of the bags have the same quality problems. I have been switching out this stuff since last november, so I don't think it is just a bad lot.
If someone will explain to how to insert a photo, I will show you a dandy.
Thanks0 -
redboneusa,
I think most of us have seen the split necks and folds in the shoulders of poor quality cases. I used to get one or two pieces every time. I'd put them aside until I got 100 and send them back to the manufacturer for replacement.
You show more tenacity than I ever would with a supplier that has one lot # of brass. Take more photos of the cases, record the lot # and take the cases back to Cabela's and get your money back. Then sit down and write a clear and accurate letter documenting the number of trips and returns of all of those bags of brass being sure to include the lot #. Photograph the bags if that will help. Photocopy your receipt(s). Winchester has always been prompt with a response to my letters and very fair with replacement. This a letter not an e-mail. I don't waste my time with e-mails these days when it comes to major suppliers or manufacturers. They get thousands a day and usually don't answer them any more.
This trim story has me a bit baffled the way you wrote it:
"I have saved one case from a box of factory loads for my dummy round. It measures out to 1.258",..."
If you are still referring to the .243 WSSM then you have either measured the case different or there is something very wrong. My .243 WSSM cases measure 1.667" from the base of the rim to the top of the neck. Winchester's official drawing has 1.670" as that dimension. Something is amiss here...
Fired cases often measure a tad short of their original length due to case shortening as it fills out the chamber. Your 0.004" is really not too bad if you can resolve the length question above.
"I am using Varget powder and CCI benchrest primers. So far my velocity has been around 3600 fps on the low end to 3900 fps on the high end. Which bullet in which cartridge for these velocities?
The factory load (wincester supreme 130 gr ballistic tips) There is no bullet for the .243 WSSM chrony'd at 3165 fps average for 12 shots. I feel like that eliminated the the idea of not enough pressure to form the cases to the chamber."
You're going to have to help us here. It appears that you are mixing data for the .270 Win. with your discussion of the .243 WSSM.
Best.0 -
NONONSENSE,
Thanks for the response. You are right about the bullet mix up.
The factory load I was referring to is actually a 95 grain ballistic silver tip. For the load developement I have been using a Hornady 58 grain V-MAX bullet.
THe length I have been referring to is the datum line measurement at the shoulder. I have been using the Stoney Point "Head & Shoulder"
measuring device. The once fired factory loaded case measures 1.258" at the datum line and the overall case length is 1.665".
Here is what has me confused. I measured the "shoulder length" on 100 pcs of new unfired brass. The shoulder measurement averaged 1.252". I measured 55 pieces of once fired brass used in my load developement, their average shoulder length was 1.254". This average is .004" shorter than the factory case I saved to use as a dummy.
Why would the cases have different fire formed dimensions?
I have not had the gages to make these measurements in the past, am I just being anal, or is this a problem. In the past I just bought factory ammo and saved the brass to reload. Those loads (.270 Win.) proved to be extremely accurate. As you know the factory loads for these new calibers are cost prohibitive to do that anymore.
Back to your question on which bullet for which velocity. For my load developement I have been using the same 58 grain V-MAX with Varget powder. The only variable has been the powder charge weight.
I look forward to your thoughts on this. Also, based on what info I have given, what would you do to get this project finished.
Given that the unfired brass, and the once fired brass are too short to size the shoulder a few thousandths off the chamber dimension I am not quite sure of what my next step should be.
Thanks,Dennis0 -
Dennis,
All of the once fired cases were fired in one rifle?
Without putting my hands on those cases and the Stoney Point tool, I am going to be at a little disadvantage. This is all guessing.
Under normal circumstances, a chamber in a bolt action rifle has a fixed length. Technically, the only thing that could move would be the surface of the lug seat under terrific pressure from the lugs from a severe overload. This is referred to as lug setback and it is highly unusual and you should have noticed this. But this makes a headspace measurement longer not shorter.
Sidestepping this issue, the tool being used to measure comes under the microscope. There could be a piece of dust or dirt caught in the bushing(s). Worse there could be a burr or some other surface interference. Again, this results in a longer measurement, not shorter.
The chamber is a fixed length so we're stuck with trying to find what can move in order to give us a different measurement. I would try this again but this time concentrate on keeping the cases perfectly square to the caliper and the tool. Do not try putting undo pressure on the calipers attempting to make the measuring more accurate. The deflection of the caliper will result in a shorter dimension...
Consistant contact pressure alone will give you the best results.
Personally I would not use the one factory case as a gauge since it is a one-of-one and therefore unique. You should have a quantity in order to make a length determination.
Run the cases through again and see what you come up with.
That's the best I can do from here.0 -
I have had similar problems with Winchester brass and have commented about same in these forums in the past. I would suggest trying to locate brass from a different manufacturer.
I stopped betting my life on Winchester ammo and components over 10 years ago.
Just my 2 cents worth...0 -
Thanks for your comments.
Does anyone know where I can get brass for the .243 WSSM
besides Winchester?
Dennis0 -
redboneusa,
I'm having the same problem with my 25 WSSM brass although not to the extreme that you have. In three boxes and two bags I have only thrown away 3 pieces. All three came from the two bags.
I would suggest as a source of brass, and I know this is expensive, is to buy loaded ammo as it goes through more stages of inspection. I got two of the boxes of brass from a guy at the range who doesn't reload. If there is a range near you that you are not a member of, you may be able to go search their brass buckets and see if someone throws it in there. On our range you are supposed to pick up reloadable brass and if you don't reload, throw it in. The non-reloadable stuff goes in the trash. A lot of good reloadable brass gets saved that way. -good luck0 -
I don't want to sound cheap, but I scrounge expensive-but-common brass at the range. I full-length size brass (even factory new) before the first firing it in my guns anyhow. I've had good results and have no reservations about throwing away less than perfect cases. Of course, I measure, trim, uniform the flash hole, primer pocket too! I don't think brass gives its best performance until fire-formed in the gun--so what difference does it make who gets the very first shot[;)] 0 -
Thanks for the responses. I was at the range over the weekend. I did look but did't find any of what I need. The brass that I have culled out so far looks OK to use. What I am not sure of is this.
Should I FL size all of the new brass to the dimensions of the shortest piece, as measured from the case shoulder? The trim to length won't be a problem, it's just that the shoulder length varies alot. In trying to develope a pet load don't you want to keep all dimensions as close as possible?
Thanks,
Dennis0
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