Wildcat 12GA From Hell.--
I just got a super shotgun done,that shoots the real
fast sabots I mentioned in the sabot thread below..
We used a Savage 210 bolt action with heavy barrel and
stock.Brass cases are real long and we made them by putting
12ga size rims on BMG brass and straightening cases.Here is
picture of our case next to regular 12ga plastic.And our
chamber will also fire thw regular shells.Ed
fast sabots I mentioned in the sabot thread below..
We used a Savage 210 bolt action with heavy barrel and
stock.Brass cases are real long and we made them by putting
12ga size rims on BMG brass and straightening cases.Here is
picture of our case next to regular 12ga plastic.And our
chamber will also fire thw regular shells.Ed
0
-
You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great
craftsmanship.Ed0 -
Hubel,
I'd like to ask you some questions about making custom 12ga slugs. But, the email is down. Mine is bangboom3@hotmail.com if you get this.0 -
Email me- gunowner@journey.com
Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture.
Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed0 -
Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
same parts, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.
This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed0 -
Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed0 -
A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED0 -
Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed0 -
Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed0 -
That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.
Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed0 -
More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.
Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED0 -
Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.
2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..
Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED0 -
Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.
1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.
2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed0 -
ome 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs
Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.
740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase Cup has it own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.
Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels- 1.32" at breech- 1.070 muzzle.Ed0 -
Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.
But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.
Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed0 -
I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.
28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.
The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED0 -
Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.
Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed0 -
10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.
I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.
For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.
These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed0 -
Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.
Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.
Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.
If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed0 -
Mores pictures of the Brennekke and Fed slugs.
[IMG]http://cdn1.{elsewhere}/ctd_images/lgprod/60350.jpg[/IMG]0 -
More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs- 0 -
Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brasscases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and machine them.Ed.0 -
The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.
For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.
And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.
In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed0 -
Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed0 -
In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that rifled,
choke section, 12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.
And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work in a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.
And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed0 -
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.
Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.
2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..
3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed0 -
You can see videos of various 8bores.4bores, etc,
by guys from around the world on You-Tube.ED0 -
Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.
And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.
I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.
Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed0 -
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.
Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed0 -
Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.
A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.
Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed0 -
We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.
In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.
Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.
And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed0
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