Q about Black Talon
What is the difference between the stuff in the black box with nickel shell and black proj and the stuff in white winchester box with brass shell and black proj? How much is 50 rounds of the latter worth?
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
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cheeze,,,,, The original blk talon has the nickle cases, and comes in the blk box that says "Black Talon".
The ammo with the brass cases uses the same bullet, but actually is not black talon, but people are selling it on the auctions as Blk Talon. The way I see it, if it does not say black talon on the box, then it's not blk talon, some may dissagree.
The value of the brass cased stuff depends on who is buying it.
Since real blk talon is no longer made, the value has increased, almost to the point of being rediculous. 50 rnds of the brass cased ammo in 9mm is worth about 15-20 dollars.0 -
seems odd some say make sure your defensive ammo is "fresh" like every 6 months but will RUSH to carry 10 year old Black Talons which are no more effective than any other hollowpoint. 0 -
The "fresh" advisory for defensive ammo is primarily to avoid the possibility that the primers have become contaminated by gun oil.
Neal0 -
I've seen picture of these shot into gel. Some of the ads on GB have them. This isn't a comment as much as a question. Do common HPs deform into what I will call pedals like the BTs? Pretty ugly!
cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.0 -
The vast majority of hollowpoints never expand for a wide variety of reasons. Any hollowpoint will have jagged edges from the tearing required to peel back and expose the lead. Lead also can be cutting, but a bullet in any caliber isn't wide enough to cause enough bleeding to cause cardiac arrest quickly in the vast majority of cases. Geletin tests have little in common with actual wounds. There is plenty of autopsies to show us what bullets do and don't do.
handguns are very low on the effective picture when it comes to stopping human beings. A fellow here two nights ago took direct hits with a police shotgun and several handgun rounds and it took four hours for him to die. Modern trauma centers are real marvels.
It boils down to placement. No bullet will make up for bad placement.0 -
Thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying about gel tests not being a fair indication of what the real world is about. I guess I am still wondering about HPs in general. If we compare gel tests of the BT and gel tests of others, is there a significant difference in the expansion?
cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.0 -
International Wound Ballistics Assn and other good sources show hollowpoints in handguns are not that effective. Not enough velocity etc. I've seen my share of autopsies and even the best ME's will tell you that you can't tell a hollowpoint from a FMJ wound. The gun rags hate to admit they aren't magic as they have ammo to sell and some of the gun rag writers are in the financial bed with the ammo firms they promote.
New era bullets in all brands are well designed and great improvements have been made. But hollowpoints can hit bone, clothing and other items and get damaged and not expand. Other times the bullet doesn't get enough resistence by what hit hits. Only about 15% will hit center mass. The others will hit at odd and usual angles etc.
NYPD used FMJ in their 9mm's for over a decade and had over 350 shootings with them and never a complaint. In fact in the Diallo shooting ALL the slugs used were FMJ. The penetration thing is HIGHLY over rated. Yup, in Diallo some complainted slugs went into apartments etc. Those were the ones that MISSED. THAT is the real penetration issue, not the ones that hit.
Also hollowpoints do indeed exit even on good hits frequently. We just had a student involved shooting and the .357 Sig hollowpoint went thru the guys chest, exited went thru a door, thru a jeep and into the street. With common lead core FMJ and lead bullets you almost always get some distortion, flattening and expansion. I have a picture of the bullets (.45 acp) taken from the men killed in the St. Valentine Day's masacre in Chicago and many are badly flattened or distorted. It still comes back to placement.
Hope that helps.0 -
Thanks for the info. I learned something today. Sounds like there are just too many marketing types in the ammo business!
cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.0 -
I had bought up a large supply of black talons in 10mm and .44 mag when they were about to be pulled. I kept them around 5 years and made about $10/per box of 20 (profit). I haven't looked lately, but the STX line they released for the non-magnum line seemed to have the same projectile.
I still like the hydra-shocks for my 10mm over the black talons.
Where my brother-in-law used to work, they used to cut kevlar for bullet proof jackets (among other things), and the black talons were no more effective at defeating it than any other high quality rounds (save for the black talon in .300 winmag [:D], which later became the failsafe's).
Just my 2 cents worth...0 -
My $.02 worth....
I dont know much about gellitin blocks, or cardio arrest.
But I do Know about wet phone books.
You take a large phone book, like L.A., Orlando, NYC, Chicago
and soak it in a 5 gallon bucket of water overnite,proo it up in a "Y" in a tree branch; then fire a Black Talon (original- nickel case black box) at it, then do the same with some P+ and a hydroshock, youll see why MY G17 is loaded with the original Black Talons when I leave the house.0 -
I've never been attacked by either gelatin or a phone book. [:)]
As long as you have a good quality gun with quality ammo then the shooter is the most important thing...
Proper impact from your 9mm black talons will do, and so will my 10mm hydra-shocks...
It doesn't matter what you shoot, just shoot it well...0
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