Judge Colt.....Question!!
And anyone else that might shed some light on this subject....!
During the 40's, after the War ended especially, Colt made several of their Revolvers in "Tu-Tone" finish. I may have this spelled wrong, but they were two tone blue, matte and shiny! This practice continued into the early 50's also.
I have seen the following guns done in this finish: Python, Officer's Model Match, 357, Official Police, Courier. In my literature, I only see fleeting mention of this "tu-tone" finish on one or two models. Have you any knowledge as to the guns that had this finish available to them? Any recommended literature that addresses these guns? Can you shed some light on this subject?
It has been my experience that when you find one of these finished this way, they "outshine" their cousins very readily! But, I've also noticed they seem to be scarce and most of their brothers are simply blued in the "shiny" style......What is your experience? Thanks!
Fish Shudder at the sound of my Name!
During the 40's, after the War ended especially, Colt made several of their Revolvers in "Tu-Tone" finish. I may have this spelled wrong, but they were two tone blue, matte and shiny! This practice continued into the early 50's also.
I have seen the following guns done in this finish: Python, Officer's Model Match, 357, Official Police, Courier. In my literature, I only see fleeting mention of this "tu-tone" finish on one or two models. Have you any knowledge as to the guns that had this finish available to them? Any recommended literature that addresses these guns? Can you shed some light on this subject?
It has been my experience that when you find one of these finished this way, they "outshine" their cousins very readily! But, I've also noticed they seem to be scarce and most of their brothers are simply blued in the "shiny" style......What is your experience? Thanks!
Fish Shudder at the sound of my Name!
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Paul;
The dual finish you ask about was availible on quite a few Colt models. As memory serves, the 1917 and victory, Single action army, New service, Police positive, detective spec.,cobra, python, trooper,etc. It was a optional finish on some standard on others. It was not well recieved. They are scare, due to the fact that alot were refinished, normally in a polished form. A word of caution, there are nodels being finished in the dual finish and sold as original. Some of the work is quite good and careful inspection is required to pick out the fakes. This seems common among the more collectable Colts. Some are easily spoted, wrong type script, less than perfect alterations in the frame or grip,etc. Others done by skilled forgers are real tough to detect. Elmer Kieth and another gentleman,who's name escapes me, compiled a book on the Colt revolver, it devoted an entire chapter to these dual finished handguns. Itr should be available through the N.R.A.0 -
RP, my Colt catalog and gun collections are not at hand as I write so I cannot verify what I will speculate from my faulty memory.
My recollection is that the "tu-tone" you mention was called "Dual-Tone" by Colt. The circumference (for lack of a better description - meaning the top, bottom and front and back straps) of revolvers was matte finish, as were the cylinder flutes. I THINK I recall at least one of my Second Model Match Target pistols having the same treatment, with the barrel flute being matte as well. I THINK this "Dual-Tone" was introduced on all Colts with the new Post-War line in 1948 or so. (My first year [1949] Officers Model Special is the earliest Colt revolver I recall having with the "Dual-Tone" treatment.) I THINK the "Dual-Tone" finish continued into the 1950s, perhaps beyond, on revolvers, but was then discontinued. I have a 1959 Cobra that I THINK may have the "shiny" finish all over, but am not sure. I do not have many Colts from the 1960s, so may not be able to verify much from that era.
I just looked at a middle 1970s Gold Cup at hand and it has the matte "circumference." In trying to recall the finish on later pistols (not revolvers), I think the Government Model-based pistols STILL have matte finish on the "circumference." (I have a Pony Pocketlite at hand, and it is all matte except for the polished slide sides.)
When I get time, I will do some research to see what the catalogs say, and what I can determine from looking at some Colts from the 1950s.0 -
While I was composing my response, Python posted a response. I strongly disagree with almost everything Python says.
I have NEVER seen a Model 1917, New Service or Single Action Army with "Dual-Tone" finish. The reason is that all were discontinued before the finish was introduced Post-War. A Victory is a SMITH & WESSON (!), and was made with either matte blue or parkerizing all over. What does a Smith & Wesson have to do with a discussion of "Dual-Tone" Colts?
If "Dual-Tone" revolvers are scarce, it is not because so many are being refinished. It is because they were made for a relatively short period of time, and many are still in the drawers of the original owners. As those owners begin to die off, more will come on the collector market.
If fakers are refinishing Models 1917, Mew Services and Single Action Armies in "Dual-Tone," the fakers are not very clever because that finish would be incorrect for those models, and collectors would not be fooled for a minute. I cannot think any Colts from the 1950s, when the "Dual-Tone" finish was used, are being faked because most are not worth the trouble. I cannot imagine what script or frame alterations would be applied to Colts from the 1950s to fake them. Which models are being faked? Why? How?
I also cannot imagine any book by Elmer Keith (not Kieth) dealing with the finish on Colt revolvers from the 1950s, especially a whole chapter. Keith wrote mostly about altered guns and his hunting exploits. A quick check of the NRA On-Line Store did not turn up any books by Keith. Please post the title of the book with this information.
Python: With Colts, I have learned never to say never, but you have stated things I have never heard of in over thiry years of Colt collecting, and a lifetime of interest. Please cite your proof for what you say.0 -
Judge: Quite possibly Python may be talking about those folks who have taken a 10 or 20 percent gun and had it refinished to make a nice shooter out of it.....using the "Dual Tone" type and style as a model for their project. I agree, I have never seen some of the guns mentioned by Python finished this way but that doesn't mean someone hasn't done it.
Regarding the Colt Pistols, I have a 70 Series, Gold Cup National Match made in 1980, which is a great example of the Dual Tone.....as were most all of these from their inception to end of production. Matte finish around the "Circumference" and shiny otherwise. Not quite as "shocking" to me on a pistol as it seems to "blend" more to the Pistol's lines. It is the Revolvers that intrigue me! When you pick up a "Dual Tone" revolver it is immediately apparent and sort of "shouts" its finish at you.....my opinion.
Because this finish seems to be rather rare and not often found, I am speculating this may be something we, as Collectors, may be overlooking. At least to me, I have found it to be rare and not often found. What has been your experience on the frequency of such finishes?
Fish Shudder at the sound of my Name!0 -
I have one question about dual tone 1911s. I have a early 80 series national match gold cup with original box. The label on the box is hand written with the info. For finish they have B, I'm assuming this means blued. The circumference is matte with the sides blued. So are all these finished this way. If this was truely a dual tone finish wouldn't the box state this. 0 -
RP:
I have lots of information!
But first, I have to comment on Python's comments again, and your rationalization of them. Whether anyone refinishes a particular gun in some fashion is irrelevant. Someone could paint one pink, and it would have relevance to nothing except an unusual taste in finishes. In my opinion, Python is warning about fakes and commenting on ORIGINAL finishes. Python states Dual Tone finishes were standard on some and optional on others. (I have now learned there is generally no hyphen, although one sneeks in occasionally in catalog text.) In my opinion, Python's comment was meant to apply to factory original finishes. It is, however, totally wrong, because the Dual Tone finish was not optional, it was standard for a short time as I shall describe, and was then discontinued.
I went through my Colt catalog collection, and the first mention of "Dual Tone" is in my Colt Circular, Form Number PL-227, bearing a date code line of (11-1-49) (parentheses in original). That circular announces the "New Dual Tone Finish," and describes it as follows:
"Colt has something new in a finish that, aside from its practical aspect, is mighty easy on the eye! Combined with the well-known Colt high-polish blue, your new Colt revolver or automatic pistol will now have a "satin" finish on those areas normally subject to hand contact and light reflection. This will provide added protection against rust and accurcy-killing blare. Dual Tone also provides improved gripping qualities."
The finish on each gun in the circular is listed as "Dual tone blue (note lower case "T") and glare-proofed." (Do not confuse "glare-proofed" with "Dual Tone." Glare-proofing refers to the matte finish on revolver top straps or automatic slide tops meant to reduce glare, and was in use well before the Dual Tone era, as well as after it.)
The last circular I have that mentions "Dual Tone" is Form Number PL-22 with the date code AL 9-53 (no parentheses), and an issue date of March 1954. 1955 catalogs and circulars do not mention Dual Tone anywhere. In the big 1957 deluxe catalog with the Single Action on the red cover, the Huntsman is mentioned as having "Dual tone," but I think that is an error caused by someone missing removing all previous copy references to Dual Tone finish. No other finish in that big catalog is described as Dual Tone.
I checked my collection to see if my Colts in the 1949 through 1954 era are Dual Tone. They are. So as to prove my theory, I did a random model check. My sampling of my early 1950 Officers Model Special, 1950 Challenger, 1952 Officers Model Match, 1952 Match Target and 1954 Courier revealed all are Dual Tone. My 1955 Python is not Dual Tone, nor are my 1955 Match Target, 1956 Agent, 1957 Courier, 1957 "357," 1959 Cobra or 1959 Officers Model Match .22 Magnum (.22WMR). The 1954 cutoff seems to be pretty definite, rare for Colt.
However, for reasons unknown, the Dual Tone finish continued on automatic pistols until this day. However, the name "Dual Tone" was not given to the cataloged finish on automatics after the 1954 circular. I checked all my boxes (revolvers and automatics) from the 1949 through 1954 era (some of which have no matching guns - box only) and found no reference to any finish at all. After thinking about that for a second or two, it occured to me that is because all Colts of that 1949-1954 period were Dual Tone blue only, so the boxes had no need to specify a finish.
After the end of the Dual Tone era, and with the advent of optional nickel finishes, the boxes then listed a finish, such as "Colt Blue" or "Colt Royal Blue," etc.. Any newer automatic with the standard finish that used to be described as Dual Tone, will have an end label that says nothing about "Dual Tone," and instead says only "Blue" or "B," etc..
Based on what I have learned, and being the owner of a low three-digit Python that should have been a first week production, but which was not shipped until almost a year later in 1956, I do not believe any Pythons ever had "Dual Tone" finish. I therefore wonder how RP could have seen a Python in Dual Tone.
The Python was introduced in 1955, and Dual Tone was discontinued for the 1955 model year. It could be a single or two digit Python could be "Dual Tone," but my low three-digit is not. However, I do recognize that, because of the shipping date, my three-digit Python could actually have been built a year out of sequence (after Dual Tone was dropped for Pythons, if it was ever used on Pythons), thus explaining why my low three-digit Python does not have Dual Tone finish like an earlier gun RP must have seen. RP, just how early was the Python you saw with Dual Tone finish?
The Trooper and "357" were introduced in late 1954 so some of those could be, and probably should be, Dual Tone. I do not have first year specimans of those so cannot comment from actual experience if any ever had Dual Tone.
RP, your question caused me to do quite a little research, which I enjoyed. Have we settled the issue (except for Python's unproven statements) to your satisfaction? Thanks to RP's question, I now believe a Dual Tone Colt revolver is more scarce than I originally thought, and consequently more valuable.
Anybody know the Keith book to which Python refers? If so, please mention it so I can see what it says about Dual Tone Colts.0 -
Judge:
It was not my intention to cause you the obvious amount of research time you've spent on this. However, it is definitely appreciated, and extremely enlightening. Thank you for your efforts.
I took a look at my journals, (I keep these on "Finds" at Gun Shows, etc.), where I write down interesting facts about specimens I find and see. It was at the Utah Gun Collector's Association Gun Show at the Weber County Fairgrounds, Ogden, Utah, in January, 2002, where I saw a tu-tone Python. However, let me be as specific as I can here. My notes on this gun were written in the parking lot outside after I exited the show and were from memory at that time. It was a gun with a "GX" serial number, (from my notes), except I now don't remember anything else about the serial number, (I didn't to write it down). My memory says it was a three or four digit number, but that seems wrong to me today. I need to expand the information I write down as it seems imcomplete now going back to it. I was more excited about seeing my first Colt with an "experimental" serial number than I was aware of the other details. I do remember the peculiar looking top rib which was a separate piece added on and the finish being the tu-tone with very interesting full checkered target style grips. I haven't seen a production gun with the Dual tone finish that I can remember though, even in a couple with 3 digit serial nos. It may be that none of the production Pythons had the dual tone finish. I will now be on the look out to find out! The prototype I saw did have the Dual tone finish.
I took a look at a couple of my guns that are Dual tone finish and thought you might find these facts interesting. You mention the Dual tone being available from 1949 through 1954, according to your catalogs, etc. My Official Police .22 LR with serial number 31XXX, made in early 1948 is a Dual tone, as is my .22 LR Courier, serial number 34XXXLW made in 1955. As Colt seems to have always done in the past, changes came about "gradually" and didn't have much of anything "stop" at end of production today, and begin differently tomorrow morning.
I do agree with you about the possibility of the value of these guns being more than possibly thought to be. Indeed, there isn't an over abundance of these types therefore I would at least think them to be "scarce" if not "rare."
Thanks again for your efforts and information....it's appreciated!
Fish Shudder at the sound of my Name!0 -
RP:
You did not "force" me to do the research. I became interested in the question and undertook the research willingly. It will result in me valuing my Dual Tone Colts a bit more highly.
I have never been fortunate enough to handle an experimental Colt of any kind. I would speculate that the "GX" (GX = Gun Experimental) Python you saw is the one pictured at the top of Page 402 of "The Book of Colt Firearms." You can clearly see the matte finish in the cylinder flutes. Also pictured on the same page are Pythons Numbers 3 and 5, and the flutes appear to be polished, not matte. I would therefore conclude that the GX "Python" was based on an Officers Model Match of Dual Tone period, and therefore had the Dual Tone finish. The rib on the GX is really crude-looking and is applied to a simple round barrel, far different from the complex forged and machined one-piece ribbed barrel of the production Python. (I wonder why I did not think to look at the pictures in the Wilson-Sutherland book when this discussion began?)
Your two guns, 1948 and 1955 with Dual Tone, prove that I should not have believed anything Colt did was done with a clear cutoff. Since I do not have a 1948 catalog, I was wondering if the announcement of the Dual Tone finish actually might have occurred then, which would be logical because I have a 1948 Match Target announcement brochure that shows a Second Model Match Target with Dual Tone, but the finish is not mentioned as such. It would not be unreasonable to continue the announcement of the new finish in the brochures for a couple of years just to get the word out. Before posting my response, I was wondering if I should speculate about a 1948 introduction for Dual Tone because 1948 was kind of the beginning of Colt's Post-War lineup due to the introduction of the completely changed Woodsman line. I need a 1948 catalog to see what it says.
Do you have factory letters on your two guns mentioned? As with my three-digit Python, it could be yours were shipped out of sequence like mine. As a further example of Colt weird numbering practices and shipping dates, I have a two-inch Police Positive Special with a 1928 serial number range that was shipped in 1926. It turns out it is a an apparent market test piece for the Detective Special, and the factory letter notes it was a special work order. The barrel is hand-stamped ".38 SPECIAL" with no other markings of any kind on the revolver, except the serial number and assembly marks. (No word "Colt" even!) A well-known Colt revolver collector told me that, for reasons unknown, when Colt was preparing to do something like my PPS, it would take a serial number far out of sequence and use it for the special piece. There were apparently 100 of these special two-inch PPS revolvers built to test the market for a two-inch small-frame revolver chambered for the powerful .38 Special (as opposed to the shorter and weaker .38 S&W used in the Bankers Special). The popular Detective Special was introduced in 1928, the same year as the serial number range for my two-inch PPS.
That was too much digression for the subject at hand, but I wanted to illustrate that the charts can be really off on shipping dates sometimes. If you do not have letters on your two guns, you ought to get them, at least on the more valuable Courier.
If I apportion the time I have spent on this research and discussion, I will have to add $100 to the value of each Dual Tone I have! No matter, it was enjoyable and enlightening. Thank you for the information on your two Dual Tones out of the range I was speculating. I think I shall henceforth consider the Dual Tone range to be 1948 through 1954 as the general rule, with the usual Colt exceptions.0 -
Just another of the fun reasons to collect these guns! I'm really not sure why I didn't pay more attention to these Dual tone guns I have. I am now beginning to have some health issues which are making me consider divesting myself of most of my collection. The Other knows little about these guns and doesn't care....an attitude pretty much shared by my children. I think it best I take care of this than to possibly leave it to them as I think they would probably be scattered to the wind with little in the way of return.......Hahahhahaha!! How many times has this happened over the years? Way too many, I think!
I don't have letters on any of my guns, but as you mentioned, it might be something I should do in some cases like the Courier I mentioned. I have an Officer's Model Match .38 Special which has a serial number much earlier than the books show as the beginning number for the 1953 issue which supposedly began with gun number 900351. My gun is much earlier than that one but still in the 900XXX series, in Dual tone finish. I ought to get a letter for that one, also.
Anyway, thanks much for digging up the "History Lesson" on this subject. I think when I have some time, I will take a look at the possible numbers involved in the Dual tone guns and see what percentage of the production runs are of the dual tone type. That could be very interesting, also. Meanwhile, I will re-value some of my Dual tone guns also.
Fish Shudder at the sound of my Name!0 -
RP:
Letters are always so interesting. Sometimes you learn something really interesting. With some of mine, I have been able to go to the original seller and get the name of the original owner. That is fascinating to me. You should get some letters for at least your more valuable guns.
Some letters raise more questions than they answer. I mentioned my Officers Model Match in .22 Magnum (.22WMR) being shipped in 1959. What makes that interesting is that the OMM in .22 Magnum was not cataloged until 1961! This particular gun was sold at a store I frequented in the 1950s. I like to think I might have looked at it in the store when it was new.
Your consideration of what to do with your guns has been on my mind a lot lately too. As one passes birthdays that end in zero, one begins to think more about the ever closer appointment with the grim reaper. I have been thinking about starting a serious thread to discuss how to deal with the issue when there is no one to whom to pass on one's collection.
Just when should one start selling? Of course, if we knew the future, the answer would be clear. Since we don't, what should we do? Should we sell the collection and buy a retirement home in Key West? What if we end up in the nursing home not knowing who we are? If our children do not have an interest in our collections, what about the next generation maybe having an interest? Sharing the interest with grandchildren would certainly be a thrill for most. Do we take a chance that the interest will be there in the next generation, or sell while we are still able to handle the sale? What if we had children so late in life that the time for the next generation to develop an interest is shorter than for most?
I enjoy my collections so much that it would be hard to part with them, yet sometimes I think I would enjoy the money more. Maybe I should have that new Ferrari or Aston Martin or Fountain before I check out.
Thoughts, anyone?
This thread will be about to its end so we may have to start again to continue any further discussions.0
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