Interesting Ammo
Found some odd ammo today... 9mm, brass-cased, FMJ. Looks to be milsurp. Headstamp in Arabic. I dug around a bit and figured out how to translate the numerals, and one set always comes out between 67 and 75, so I'm guessing that to be the date of manufacture. Some of the brass is cracked, maybe 5-10% so I'm inspecting each round and pulling out the bad ones. Maybe I'll pull the bullets later and give them away here... But it came in a .50 cal. can, about 2300 rounds for $130. Hard to beat that. I'm guessing it's corrosive. Any suggestions on what I should do or make sure of before I go to blast it off?
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chunk, if you can provide a scan of the headstamp(s), I can forward it to some guys who specialize in collecting 9mm. There are thousands upon thousands of headstamps and I do not have the references, but these are the guys who wrote them! 0 -
Thanks, but my question has more to do with what should I do for safety's sake when firing old milsurp ammo. 0 -
Also, what steps ought I take to prevent corrosion? 0 -
Well, if they can ID the stuff, they may be able to tell you whether it was made for general / handgun use or is the unusual hotter loads for SMGs, and quite possibly if it's NC or not.
But never mind.
Cracked necks in ammo of this vintage (this is *not* "old" in my book - I've shot plenty of US milsurp NC ammo from the 50s & 60s as well as corrosive ammo from the 30s and 40s) is not a good omen . . . suggesting less than optimal manufacturing and/or storage practices, especially when one considers that this condition is rarely seen in German 9mm ammo made 90+ years ago for the First World War . . . . The condition and / or the previous owner's experience with the ammo might account for the 'Hard to beat' price . . . .
Since you are planning to shoot it, best to prepare for the worst in terms of safety equipment (which should be done anyway). You might want to know where to find a brass dowel to knock out a head separation (unlikely). For sure I would not do any rapid fire shooting & would be particularly sensitive to any unusual sounds / behaviors. Plan to use GI bore cleaner in case it *is* corrosive rather than finding out the hard way. You will need to strip the weapon and thoroughly clean the guts, not just swab out the bore.0 -
chunkstyle, this sounds to me like some of the Egyptian surplus 9mm which was imported in large quantities in the mid 1980's. As originaly shipped it came packed in a zinc lined wooden crate. There was a metal pull wire which opened the lining...left a VERY sharp edge! Inside there were 150- 36 round boxes of 9mm ammo. The boxes were of a very flimsy card board which had a label with Arabic lettering. The boxes were two piece- top and bottom and each piece was held together by a staple and then sealed closed by the label.
It was my understanding that this ammunition was loaded in 36 round boxes for use in the Egyptian Port Said submachinegun, a copy of the Swedish M45 Carl Gustav. As a result this ammo was loaded HOT. I felt it was too hot for most pistols but it worked perfectly in my 9mm Colt AR-15 as well as the UZI's I owned at that time. I rather liked the idea of using that Arab ammo in the UZI! There were very few mis-fires back then and I felt it was pretty good stuff- until the Chicom non corrosive 9mm hit the shores at cut rate prices. I'm betting that your 9mm is this Egyptian surplus which was taken out of the crate and had the boxes fall apart- easy to do. After that it was tossed into ammo cans and sold in bulk. No doubt it was laying around exposed for about 15 years until it was thrown into the cans.
There are no precautions about using corrosive ammo BEFORE shooting. Just be sure that after you are done you clean the weapon with plenty of hot soapy water. Old GI bore cleaner will also work but I've found the hot water routine works just fine. Hot water is prefered becuase it helps disolve the primer salts faster as well as drying quicker. After that clean and oil as usual.
Mark T. Christian0 -
The shop owner did show me some unopened boxes of the stuff, in cardboard boxes like you have described. All labels were in Arabic, so no clue as to what they said. He said the ammo was "Israeli" but I knew the difference between Arabic and Hebrew. He also thought they might have fairly hard primers, and all rounds might not fire in my M9. So long as I don't get hangfires, or it's so hot it splits my chamber sides (the M9 is fairly strong, and can easily handle normal +P ammo), I think it will be ok. I have heard simply cleaning by immersion in a pot of boiling water, then hang dry, then scrub and oil like normal. I always field strip to clean, but will also remove the grips and get into the hammer area as well.
I know the Egyptians made a copy of the M9 in the Mahdi works in that period, and I was wondering if this ammo was meant for it.
I have no means to scan it the headstamp, heres a rough description:
3 Arabic letters at 12 o'clock, a few different types here.
2 Arabic digits (NOT western, but modern Arab) at 8 o'clock, always between 67 and 75.
2 more Arabic digits at 4 o'clock, always 27.
Think my M9 can safely eat it?
Is it for sure corrosive?0 -
If the boxes are rectangular- longer and thin, then it is the Egyptian for sure. There was indeed a Beretta pistol made under license by the Egyptian's: the Model 1951 Helwan. No doubt the Egyptian's used this same ammo in their pistols, but since the boxes are loaded with 36 rounds and the magazine of a Port Said submachinegun holds the identical number, it is pretty clear why it was packaged that way.
There is really no reason to boil your pistol in a pot, just wash down with the hot water and be sure the bore is well scrubbed. I can assure you that this ammo is corrosive, but there are no long term risks to corrosive ammo if the proper cleaning methods are used.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Took the stuff out today. No case splits in any of the brass I recovered, about 10 % of what I fired. The ammo turns out to be berdan-primed. Some of the primer indentations were bulged out, I assume it's from a hot load, though recoil wasn't noticably greater. A few rounds failed to cycle the gun, leaving the case in the chamber. I guess this is from some moisture in the powder, or the like. On such rounds, I did notice reduced recoil. It was only about 1% of the rounds fired. One round (out of about 300) failed to fire. I fired on a second try. After firing off the milsurp stuff, I used some commercial ammo thru, hoping it would help push anything corrosive out.
I hadn't tried any of the cracked stuff, and I may never.
I'm off to take a look at the bore...0 -
Chunk, firing known NC ammo after firing corrosive rounds may reduce the amount of the corrosive salts deposited in the bore, but it does not remove them entirely. Nor does it do anything to the material deposited as a vapor in the action. Corrosive ammo requires thorough cleaning of the entire firearm with solvents designed for that exact purpose or *hot* soapy water. I would suggest that firing the weapon and waiting to see if rust develops is not the best way to determine whether the priming compound leaves corrosive residues. And there are some mixtures which are less corrosive than others, which take longer to produce 'results.' 0 -
Yeah, there's no reason to boil it in a pot. Until the other half gets home and asks what's for dinner. You then say, "Soup." Kind of like what I said when asked why I keep cast bullets in the fridge. "Keeps 'em fresh.", says me. Seriously, soap and hot water, followed by a regular cleaning and oiling will deal with corrosive ammo. 0 -
One other note, when firing corrosive ammo, it is best to clean (with either 'old' GI bore cleaner or HOT soapy water for THREE consecutive days. Depending on the corrosive element, the salts are deposited under a lot of pressure. Using consecutive cleanings insures that you get ALL of the salts out.
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis0
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