lead bullets, continued
since the original thread wherein the subject arose questioning the advisability of using lead bullets in polygonal-rifled pistols was locked, I figured on answering the Rugster here.
The original topic concerned the USP, and it was in that context that I reported very satisfactory results using lead-bullet reloads through my USP 45. I was not referring to Glocks, but since the subject has been raised, I can also report that the Glock 45 works very well with the same 200gr hard-cast lead bullets over 5.3 grains of Bullseye powder. Have shot many hundreds of these through a Glock 21, and they are accurate and trouble-free.
The owner's manuals for most pistols will caution you against using any reloads. 20 years of hard practice has shown me that these warnings are not relevant. The Glock "kaboom" issue is something to be mindfull of, and regular lead removal from the polygonal bbls is a must. I have found that the 45 Glocks shoot well with cast lead bullets, but the 9's do not ( accuracy suffers). If you are going to make and use your own ammo, there certainly is a higher maintenance requirement than if you are using factory hardball exclusively.
The original topic concerned the USP, and it was in that context that I reported very satisfactory results using lead-bullet reloads through my USP 45. I was not referring to Glocks, but since the subject has been raised, I can also report that the Glock 45 works very well with the same 200gr hard-cast lead bullets over 5.3 grains of Bullseye powder. Have shot many hundreds of these through a Glock 21, and they are accurate and trouble-free.
The owner's manuals for most pistols will caution you against using any reloads. 20 years of hard practice has shown me that these warnings are not relevant. The Glock "kaboom" issue is something to be mindfull of, and regular lead removal from the polygonal bbls is a must. I have found that the 45 Glocks shoot well with cast lead bullets, but the 9's do not ( accuracy suffers). If you are going to make and use your own ammo, there certainly is a higher maintenance requirement than if you are using factory hardball exclusively.
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I never would have believed it but in trying all kinds of different reloads in my 45 USP, I found that it shoots the tightest groups with a 155 swc lead bullet. I use to have a 45 H&K P9S target that would not shoot any kind of lead bullet accurately. I wonder if there is some difference in the polygon rifling that they now use. 0 -
My understanding you were refering to the Glock,I guess I misunderstood.But you still are not supposed to shoot plain Lead bullets in a glock.It will ruin the Rifleing,I was taught this at the Glock Academy in Georgia some time ago.I was unaware that HK and Magnum Research used the same type Rifleing until I read it in one of the Popular Gun Magazines,and they said the same thing about shooting lead bullets in their guns because it would damage the rifleing.I didnt object to you disagreeing,thats fine.But it was the way you done it.Dont believe the above post?What I stated was a fact I dont lie.Maybe someone else can shed more light on it.And yes all company's warn against the use of reloads.But in the Glock owners Manuels it says not to use lead bullets,only jacketed Bullets.You can buy factory loaded lead bullets.But I generally follow the Manufacture's advice,and it was also taught at the Glock Academy.No hard feeling here,it just looked like you were calling me a liar.But its not worth any hard feelings.Hope you feel the same way.
Rugster
Toujours Pret0 -
I misunderstood.But you still are not supposed to shoot plain Lead bullets in a glock.It will ruin the Rifleing,I was taught this at the Glock Academy in Georgia some time ago 0 -
Hi Rugster- it was never my intention to call you a liar. You believe that the info you posted is true, and you have some credible source ( the Glock armorer's school) to base your statement upon.
In actual practice, lead bullets cannot damage either the bbl or the polygonal rifling, due to the relative hardness of the two metals.
This idea was presented in somwhat less polite terms by our friend Darrell. Likewise, I cannot possibly scratch, deform, or damage my bbl by scraping out the leading with a brass rod, as I described above.
You can't go wrong by avoiding lead bullets, but if you choose to use them, they will deliver excellent performance at the lowest cost.
For those of us who send thousands of rounds downrange every year through our tupperware, that is a good enough reason to use lead. I'm not willing to pay the price difference for jacketed bullets if the pistol will perform at potential with lead.
Please accept my apology if you feel that this was somehow an attack on your personal honor.0 -
Hi Rugster- it was never my intention to call you a liar. You believe that the info you posted is true, and you have some credible source ( the Glock armorer's school) to base your statement upon.
In actual practice, lead bullets cannot damage either the bbl or the polygonal rifling, due to the relative hardness of the two metals.
This idea was presented in somwhat less polite terms by our friend Darrell. Likewise, I cannot possibly scratch, deform, or damage my bbl by scraping out the leading with a brass rod, as I described above.
You can't go wrong by avoiding lead bullets, but if you choose to use them, they will deliver excellent performance at the lowest cost.
For those of us who send thousands of rounds downrange every year through our tupperware, that is a good enough reason to use lead. I'm not willing to pay the price difference for jacketed bullets if the pistol will perform at potential with lead.
Please accept my apology if you feel that this was somehow an attack on your personal honor.0 -
Welllll, not to jump into the fray with ad hominim attacks but I believe the following to be true.
1st, polygonal barrels DO lead up faster than rifled barrels and a significant increase in effort is required to clean them. This effort WILL eventually wear a barrel; even water will wear away rock. Therefore, using soft lead WILL damage a Glock polygonal barrel, how much damage depends on how much you shoot and how hard you clean, one or two sessions a month you may never notice but three or four a week might cause problems in a relativey short time (a few years).
2nd, since the Glock has a design defect that allows it to fire when not fully in battery, firing lead bullets which allow lead build-up is a dangerous idea. The build-up could eventually allow you to fire without a complete lock-up - KABOOM
3rd, earlier Glocks (G17s) had a relatively large unsuported chamber area (I think they have fixed that problem). Shooting reloads was a bad idea as the already weakened brass could (and did) fail - KABOOM.
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis0 -
Rugster, the magnum Research Desert eagle is gas operated, henece, no lead bullets because they plug the gas port.
AlleninAlaska
http://www.outdoor-o-rama.com
He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
-- Thomas Paine0 -
The Glock "kaboom" issue is something to be mindfull of, and regular lead removal from the polygonal bbls is a must.
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The "kaboom" issue applies ONLY to the .40 cal guns. This term is from Dean Spier over at www.thegunzine.com. If someone has VALID verifiable info on ANY glock or polygonal rifling gun blowing EXCLUSIVELY because of lead let me know.
Also the lead can NOT wear out rifling of ANY kind. Springfield Armory had a 1911 at a Shot Show with 100,000+ documented rounds thru it. Bore was still fine, no change in accuracy. That was with FMJ to boot. I had a K-22 with a documented use from a shooting gallery of over 1 MILLION rounds. All lead, no bore wear. I wish that would SINK in. It can NOT harm it. And the key is HARD cast. Nor can removing rifling with a brass brush. You can't scrub long enough to do any noticeable wear to ordnance steel to the average gun. The entire idea behind polygonal rifling is it does NOT wear from objects being rubbed over it since there are no sharp angled corners etc. If JACKETED slugs of copper can't wear it out, how will a bore brush? HARD CAST NO PROBLEM.
Not only Glock, but H&K, IMI, Steyr, and others use polygonal rifling. The fact some didn't know that shows some blinders.
You also find a big and huge aftermarket in 1911 owners for
polygonal rifling and most if not all shoot LEAD.
Glock is hardly a source of 100% correct info. They denied for YEARS the G17 had a problem with "slamfires" and "multiple bust discharges" and finally caved in when the evidence was overwhelming and they stood to loose key govt contracts and Dean Spier exposed the problem in a major gun publication. Glock RECALLED over 400,000 guns including mine. This was in the early 90's. You can also recall Glock denied a problem with the +2 extensions. See them on the market? They stopped production when MANY PD's had an issue with them including my own gun. Without warning the thing released sending all 19 rounds down the alley while I was looking for a prowler. The maker of Phen Fen also said it was safe and the tobacco companies said smoking was safe and cancer free. Blind faith can be DEADLY. Sorry for my abrasive grumpy old man nature. I'm to damn old and sick to be nice anymore. Use HARD cast, ENJOY. If that doesn't blow up your skirt, buy an aftermarket bbl, or get one from Glock. They have them. Today with the cost of factory ammo it's hard to reload with lead and save much money considering the value of one's time. Harumph.....Everyone give me a harumph.....
Edited by - Darrell on 11/22/2002 15:06:130 -
HARUMPH
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis0 -
I see this is going no where Darrell.Go get your Glock owners Manuel and read the instructions.If you do not have one,borrow one from someone and it will save you a Phone call to Glock.I only quoted the owners Manuel.
Best!!!
Rugster
Toujours Pret0 -
I see this is going no where Darrell.Go get your Glock owners Manuel and read the instructions.If you do not have one,borrow one from someone and it will save you a Phone call to Glock.I only quoted the owners Manuel.
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And you have been told by OTHERS that such info is in ALL or most owners manuals for many other guns as well and you were told WHY.
I already called Glock.0 -
To Continue a Topic once its been closed in the Ask the Experts....Take it to the General Discussion Forum....
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0
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