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Browning Auto-5 Gun ID Assistance Requested

AV8R
Recently I acquired a Browning Auto-5 (light 20 gauge) with the serial number C8292.

When I go to Browning's "Date your gun" link:
http://www.browning.com/services/dategun/guns/auto5.htm

This serial number is not to be found. The barrel indicates that it was made in St. Louis. My best guess is that its a WW2 era make. Its missing a brass friction brake which is on order, but is mechanically perfect otherwise. Can someone help me positively ID this Auto-5?

When I called Browning for a spare magazine cap (with swivel), they sent me one that supposedly fits all 20 and 16 guage Auto-5 light models... except mine of course! The magazine tube on the one I have is smaller in diameter. What gives?!

I have my father's beautiful Belgium made 12 Gauge Auto-5 magnum, and its much more beautiful than this St. Louis made one with a rough looking texture on the upper reciever. Not at all the high polish and engraved craftsmanship of the Belgium gun.

Thank you in advance,

AV8R
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Comments

12 comments

Date Votes
  • MIKE WISKEY
    THREE COMPANYS MANUFACTURED THE A-5 1-BROWNING (IN BELGUM AND JAPAN), 2- REMINGTON (M-11) AND SAVAGE (M-720, 745 ET ALL). ALMOST NONE OF THE PARTS INTERCHANGE BETWEEN MAKERS. NOW IN 1941 WITH MOST OF EUROPE UNDER GERMAN CONTROL BROWNING (U.S.) HAD TO TURN TO A U.S. MAKER FOR THIER A-5'S SO THEY CONTRACTED WITH ... SAVAGE TO MAKE THE 720 WITH BROWNING'S NANE AND FINISH. PROBABLY ONLY LASTED A YEAR OR SO BUT I HAVE SEEN A COUPLE OF THESE SAVAGE MANUFATURED A-5'S. EASEY WAY TO CHECK IS TAKE OUT THE FRONT TRIGGER GUARD SCREW, IF IT'S NOT THREADED (JUST HELD IN BY THE RETAINER SCREW) IT'S A U.S MGF., IF IT'S THREADED IT IS BELGIAN. BROWNING PROBABLY WON'T ADMIT TO THIS BUT TRY SAV. 720 PARTS FOR REPLACEMENT, I'LL BET THEY FIT.
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  • Herschel
    The rough finish on the receiver top sounds like a Remington made Browning auto five. I have owned these in standard weight and did not know that Remington made a light 20 for Browning. This is just a guess but if it was a Remington made gun, the model ll Remington parts might fit.
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  • AV8R
    Mike W

    I was able to unscrew the retaining screw but unable to budge the trigger screw/pin itself. I dare not force it and risk breaking it or scratching the gun. Does the fact that the retaining screw exist help in further ID'ing this gun? If its a Savage made Auto-5, where would I go on internet to dig deeper? Savage.com? What would I call this gun, a model 720?

    Herschel

    I tend to agree that this is a WW2 vintage gun for many reasons: First because it looks that old (yet its clean), secondly because it makes sense that the guns would be contracted out and not as fancy during war years. But if Remington made it, then why doesnt the serial number come close to those on Browning's date your gun page?

    Can you both dig into your connections to help me out further?

    If Browning cannot find the brass friction piece, who can you recommend that might?

    Lastly, assuming I Browning gets me the right friction brass piece, what would you say this gun is worth being that its fairly rare?

    AV8R



    Edited by - AV8R on 11/12/2002 00:11:52
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  • MIKE WISKEY
    I COMPAIRED PARTS TO THE EARLY WW11 BROWNINGS THAT I'VE SEEN AND THAT'S WHAT I BASED MY OPINION ON THAT SAV. MADE THESE (SAV. AND REM. PARTS ARE DIFFERENT). GUNPARTSCORP.COM HAS PARTS LISTED FOR THESE AS WELL AS THE REM. M-11. THE FRONT TRIGGER GUARD SCREW ON A TRUE BROUWNING IS THREADED, ON THE SAV. IT'S JUST A SLOTTED HEADED PIN HELD IN BY THE RETAINING SCREW. THE SER. # WAS PROBABLY ONE THAT SAV. ASSIGNED AND WOULDN'T SHOW UP ON THE BROWNING SITE.
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  • AV8R
    Mike,

    I went to the site you referenced, searched on SAVAGE 720 and found this:
    http://www.e-gunparts.com/products.asp?chrMasterModel=089Zz720

    Problem is:
    1. I cannot see the schematic or picture of the 720, so I dont know if its the same gun without buying the schematic (sigh).

    2. They list a friction piece (bronze) for a 12 ga. but not a 20 ga. There are other references in this list for 20 ga parts, so that does mean it existed at one time.

    3. Under Remington, I find two models that have a 20 ga friction piece: M-11 and M-1148. Both are unavailable currently.
    How or where can I view a picture of these two models so I can see for myself which gun is closest to my Browinging?

    I still need to find the friction piece and positively ID my gun. So the hunt continues...

    Thank you,

    AV8R



    Edited by - AV8R on 11/12/2002 17:28:19
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  • AV8R
    OK OK...

    I think this story will have a happy ending...

    First of all thank you both for your input. Your insights help direct my research. Secondly, I went with the assumption that this gun is a Remington made Browning Auto-5, which is called a M-11 Browning made by Remington. It also turns out that this gun is a "Standard wieght" Auto-5 20 Ga. and not a "light" as I thought previously. They only made Mags and Stds for 20 ga. And how you know is by the barrel diameter: 3" for Mag and 2 3/4" for Std (as was mine).

    With this assumption my next steps were to go to the Remington site and do more diggings. The M-11 is considered obsolete. So on the Remington site, I searched their parts lists and suppliers:
    http://www.remington.com/support/parts/obsolete.htm

    My being in California, I started calling the gunsmiths on this list in my area. On my 3rd call, we found the part. Or at least we think it is. We wont know till I get it and try it, but he did say it was smaller in diameter than the other 20 ga browning friction pieces (not the ring) - which is true. The one sent to me by Browning was too big for my gun's magazine tube. So after all this efforts, perhaps for $16 part, we will have saved this gun from the gunsmiths part-out bin.

    Hopefully by this weekend, ill know if this WW2 vintage Browning is good to go skeet hunting with or not. If someone out there knows the value of this gun, or how to positively ID the C8292 serial number, or where I can find this gun's schematic (for free? online) - I would appreciate you emailing me at fltsimav8r@earthlink.net

    Thomas "AV8R"

    Edited by - AV8R on 11/12/2002 19:03:00
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  • nord
    I've watched this thread for quite some time and didn't say much because I knew that you couldn't have a Light 20 made by Remington. That said...

    Both Remington and Savage made A-5 clones, but neither were exact copies of the Browning gun. Savage guns will be marked with the Savage logo, Remington guns with the Remington logo. For the war years, though, Remington made the A-5. This gun is known as the "American Browning" and is the real thing. It isn't really rare, nor does it attract more collector interest than any other A-5, but it IS A REAL BROWNING!

    Values are hard to determine without seeing the gun but well used A-5's will turn upwards of $400.00. Nicer pieces can double that figure if properly optioned.

    I'm not up on the Remington series of serial numbers, but memory serves well enough to make me think that yours fits the bill.

    Nord
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  • Herschel
    Just looked you gun up in the Blue Book of Gun Values. It says there were over 11,000 made in 20 ga. American Brownings were made from 1940-1949 with the serial number range being 229,000 to 346,000. B prefix indicated 12 ga., A denotes 16 ga. and C denotes 20 ga.
    I am puzzled that the sn you gave does not fall into this range.
    Mike Whiskey's post is the first time I have heard that Savage made shotguns for Browning. The Blue book only mentions those made by Remington. If you do have a Savage made Browning, I would say it is very rare.
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  • Warpig883
    Savage did not make them for Browning. Savage had their own model the 720 based ont eh browning design and patents. This is the same for Remington and the model 11, the model 11 is not a browning, it is a Remington gun based on the browning Design and Browning Patents. The Savage and Rem Model 11 both have differences from the A-5 and each other. No mag cutoff is one of the more obvious ones.

    The A-5 made by Remington during the war is a Browning A-5. Browning has almost always had their guns made by another manufacturer and during the war it was remingtom for a while. These browning A-5's made by Remington during the war are not the same as the Remington model 11.

    If it does not say Browning A-5 then it is not a Browning A-5.

    If it is a Savage it will say Savage on it. If it is a Remington it will say Remington on it. Both the Savage and the Remington look like the Browning A-5 but on casual observation the differances and origin of manufacture should be obvious.

    moc.murofsmraerifeht






    Edited by - warpig883 on 11/12/2002 23:58:55
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  • AV8R
    THis one clearly says BROWNING on the side, but the serial number is not in any of those qouted on the Browning site.

    I would say that my original guess that it was war years is correct. Yet I was wrong about it being a "light", when its actually a "standard".

    It appears that Mike Wiskey was correct in that this is likely to be a Remington made Browning. Id still like to see the serial number verified, and a schematic for it.

    It became obvious that something wierd was going on when Browning sent me their 20 ga bronze friction piece and magazine cap which were both too big for this gun. Browning swears that they sent me the right parts. This would substantiate the claims that other vendors didnt make their version for Browning exactly like those made in Belgum.

    Ive since found a local gunsmith who believes they have friction piece that will fit this browning due to the fact that its smaller than most of their other 20 ga similar parts on hand. If its a M-11 or an authentic part for this particular Browning (made by Remington) is yet to be seen or verified.

    Ill just be satisfied to get this baby working and let it enjoy its golden years in my family's loving hands smashing skeet at Prado Olympic firing range along side my father's 12 Ga Belgum.

    When the part arrives, Ill post the results.

    Thanks all for your time and postings...

    AV8R
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  • Warpig883
    From 1940 to 1946 production of the Auto-5 was turned over to Remington. Serial number is on the side of receiver. "ABC" for American made Version. (A=16 gauge, B-12 gauge, C=20 gauge)

    moc.murofsmraerifeht
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  • AV8R
    WarPig,

    The serial number is C8292, and the C would indicate a 20 ga. (same letter nominclature as what Browning used), except the number scheme is probably Remingtons. Im wondering if the Browning owners manual would still apply or not for this one?

    "moc.murofsmraerifeht" = inverse of (the fire arms forum.com)

    Heres one for you:
    ywa sia ouya singua vererea ypticscra?

    AV8R



    Edited by - AV8R on 11/13/2002 11:43:51
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