pre-ban stuff from Canada
I was wondering if it is leagal to buy high capacity magazines from a dealer in Canada? I know it is a federal offence to import them from countries outside of North America, but I'm not sure about Canada. Do they have the same stupid ban we do?
THanks
THanks
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If you are thinking about buying the 10/22 high capacity magazines from Canada, be advised that most Canadian sellers are listing post ban magazines that have had the "export only" sanded/polished off. They are selling altered merchandise which is not legal in the USA. There is one bloke who has a web site advertizing that he wants to be your source for 10/22 ruger mags. He is selling magazines that he recently purchased from Butler Creek (they are still making them for EXPORT ONLY) that cost him probably less than $15.00 each. He is then altering them to look like pre-ban magazines and selling them here.
If they were legitimate magazines, that would be a different story. However, I suspect that most of the legitimate pre-ban magazines in Canada have found their way here by now.
Concerning bonified pre-ban magazines, the question came up here at one time in the past, and the administration of gunbroker concluded they could find no laws prohibiting the importation of high capacity magazines from any country as long as they were genuinely pre-ban magazines. I asked the administration about this specifically, and sent them an auction listing of someone in Germany selling high capacity mags with US bidders. Administration said it was okay. I have seen other discussion boards where people have ordered them from Austrailia, and the indication was, as long as the magazines don't cost over $100.00, it's okay for this sort of importation.
Those who dissagree, don't tell me about it, tell gunbroker administration. I tried telling them that a couple of years ago, but they concluded it was okay.
But say away from 10/22 mags from Canada. They are, for the most part, altered post ban magazines. I have seen them listed on gunbroker, in fact, and contacted the buyer to ask about them. They told me right up front they were altered magazines.
You see, there is no such thing as post ban magazines in Canada. They don't have a law restricting magazine capacity. So there is (apparently) nothing illegal about them taking post ban magazines they import from the US and altering them to look like pre-ban magazines.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
The Canadians have different stupid bans.
You can't import high cap magazines from Canada, or anywhere else. That is, not legally.
Neal
Edited by - nmyers on 11/06/2002 20:28:340 -
Neal,
Can you find a law that says that? Please site a statute I can see. Gunbroker Administration doesn't believe that is correct, at least, they didn't last time I asked them about it.
I have found no laws prohibiting it. Can you show me one?
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Edited by - boeboe on 11/07/2002 00:30:100 -
The '94 assault weapons ban was to stop the importation of high capacity mags.
Dennis0 -
The '94 ban doesn't say that. You'd have to show me where.
Here's the deal. Two years ago I listed some Butler Creek Steel Lipped magazines, new in pack. They were being bid up, but the reserve wasn't met. One guy from Germany copied my ad exactly and listed the same thing for far less money. Miffed, I contacted gunbroker administration and told them a guy from Germany was selling high capacity mags and people in the US were bidding on them. Gunbroker administration responded and said they could find no law prohibiting the importation of pre-ban high capacity magazines. I'm sure they looked. I looked as well. The importation of pre-ban high capacity magazines was not restricted in the 1994 ban. Or if it was, there is no clear wording to that affect.
I was sure it was illegal back two years ago when I complained to gunbroker. It didn't seem fair that people who had invested in magazines here would be burned by people from foreign countries underselling them. I was P.O.ed about the whole deal.
At that time, there was absolutely nothing in gunbroker's extensive rules prohibiting buyers from buying high capacity magazines from abroad. Of course, those who have read these rules know they reflect federal laws. I don't know if that's changed, I haven't looked at gunbroker rules lately. But I'm here to tell you, two years ago, gunbroker administration and I both searched applicable laws and could find nothing prohibiting buyers in the US from purchasing pre-ban high capacity magazines from foreign buyers. It's not that I wanted to buy foreign magazines. On the contrary, I was attempting to protect the value of some of my investments.
The importation of pre-ban high capacity magazines IS NOT addressed in the '94 ban. If someone could find a statute that forbids it, I would sure like to see it. And, I think gunbroker administration should be made aware of it. Because unless something has changed, gunbroker is still allowing foreign sellers to list high capacity magazines for sale to US buyers.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Edited by - boeboe on 11/07/2002 00:28:570 -
Time to stop the urban legends and bartender law stuff. Here is the ACTUAL code. Not very long nor complex.
18 U.S.C. sec. 922 (w):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection.
(3) This subsection shall not apply to--
(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;
(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving ammunition, of a large capacity ammunition feeding device transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or
(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of any large capacity ammunition feeding device by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.
(4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts that paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of paragraph (2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof to show that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of title 18, United States Code, shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1).
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(4) (3), clearly shows the burden of proof to show the magazine is POST ban is on the government. This is why pilots and others that travel abroad often bring back high capacity magazines and customs doesn't blink. For YEARS I bought high capacity Glock magazines in this manner. It is NOT illegal. The U.S. was the ONLY nation doing this nonsense and Glock mags sold in other countrys didn't have the LEO ONLY stamping and serial numbers. For example you can arrive with two dozen magazines and for all YOU or ANYONE knows they were made in 1989. There is NO way to establish WHEN they were made. This became a problem for ATF and about a year ago we started to see Glock magazines marked, " NOT FOR SALE IN THE U.S." POST BAN MFGR." Obviously a LOT of magazine came into the U.S. prior to Glock stamping the new information on their magazines. There is NO question glock was pressured into this by BATF or other sources.
Importers not long ago found a huge supply of Beretta 92 magazines on the surplus market sold by a national police force. Since they are NOT marked and nobody can show the mfgr date on each magazine they were imported and have been sold at attractive prices. Browning High Power magazines also have been imported in quantity and most obviously made in the 50's, 60's, 70's or lord knows when so no restrictions. I think the anti gun crowd clearly UNDER estimated how many magazines are out there. The ban has been little more than a pain the butt for shooters. Guns designed POST ban with unique magazines are another issue. There would be NO way a legal pre-ban magazine can exist (save LEO-military) for civilian use/purchase.
A disadvantage if you buy a post-ban designed gun. This is why some guns were made with the ability to accept standard PRE-ban magazines and thus popularity of clone guns like variations of the high power. Hope this helps clear it up some. If in doubt do your own research.0 -
Darrell, thanks for posting the exact wording of the law.
However, as is usually the case, the law is further explained (and sometimes expanded) in the Code of Federal Regulations and ATF rulings. In the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P5300.4) pages 52-53, that part of the law is repeated. In addition, the following additional regulation is shown:
"(c) Importation, manufacture, and dealing in large capacity ammunition feeding devices. Possession and transfer of large capacity ammunition feeding devices by persons who manufacture, import, or deal in such devices will be presumed to be lawful if such persons maintain evidence establishing that the devices are possessed and transferred for sale to purchasers specified in paragraph (b) of this section." (These are the same exceptions listed in the law.)
Yes, I'm sure that you and others have gotten away with the illegal importation of high cap mags. ATF has the smallest number of agents of any federal LE agency; between terrorism and snipers, high cap mags are the least of their worries. However, a chance inspection, or some other violation could easily lead to arrest, trial, loss of your job, etc. "Burden of proof" applies to trial, not arrest. Hardly seems worth the risk to me.
Neal0 -
Yes, I'm sure that you and others have gotten away with the illegal importation of high cap mags.
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The importation was NOT illegal unless the buyer KNEW when the mags were made. As the law clearly says the burden is on the govt. Coming thru customs and FEDERAL INS agents they find no reason to question the date of manufacturer. The burden can apply to "probable cause." Why would they think the mags are POST ban?
Coming thru customs and allowing examination of the magazine is hardly being deceptive or scheme or design. Not that Glock MARKS the magazine you would be hard pressed to play dumb. A box of high cap mags is also hardly worth the effort for the feds to even look into the date of manufacture even if it were possible. But it sure isn't illegal without YOU KNOWING when they were made.0
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