.45/70 origins?
I enjoyed the topic a while back about the meanings of the numerical extensions on cartridges such as .30-06 & .30-30. Well I've got another one. What does the 70 in .45/70 mean?
-Marcus
****Happiness is a new gun.****
-Marcus
****Happiness is a new gun.****
0
-
gravedigger, just like the 30-30, the "70" represents the original loading of 70 grains of black powder. There were other numeral designations after the 70 to show the weight of the bullet as well due to different loadings for infantry and calvalry. We have some SERIOUS ammo and martial arms experts on this forum so if you had a specific question about the history of this round, someone could answer it.
Mark T. Christian0 -
As usual Mark has hit the nail on the head once again. 0 -
Another one that's always bothered me was .380. If it's 9x17mm and 9mm=.355 (correct me if I'm wrong), where the hell did they get .380? Was it to make people make an association with .38 Special?
-Marcus
****Happiness is a new gun.****0 -
The .380 is known in Europe as the 9mm Kurz (short)- amoung other names. Until after WWII meteric cartridge designations were not widely known or used in the United States, save 8mm Mauser and a few others. The .380 cartridge was developed in around 1910 and was first manufactured here by Colt. The .38 caliber was widely recognized in the U.S.A. for military, police and civilian use, so Colt wanted to use some form of "thirty-eight".
The problem was that there were just too many .38 caliber cartridges in circulation at the time: .38 long and short Colt, .38 special, .38 S&W, .38 Colt New Police, .38 Winchester, .38 automatic, and some others as well. There were also a bunch of 9mm cartridges in use over in Europe in addition to the 9mm Luger. No one in this country had ever seen them and to call the new cartridge a 9mm anything over here would cause a mess. What to do?
Colt simply decided to call the cartridge the .380, for no other reason that there was only one other round with that designation in use- an obsolete British cartridge. The zero at the end caused it to be called the three-eighty and ended most confussion with other .38's. Why it was not named the three-fifty five is lost in marketing history. I guess it simply did not have a "ring" to the name.
I asked this same question many years ago and my old boss expalined the story to me just like this. I may well be wrong about it so if anyone can shead more light on the subject I'd appreciate it.
Mark T. Christian
Edited by - mark christian on 10/24/2002 01:08:260 -
Re: 45-70 Origins: I heard a historian one time say the reason the military went to the large (and powerful for the day) 45-70 was to bring down horses. The indian was the enemy of the day and, on horseback, he was a formidable foe. Dismounted, he was no match for soldiers with sabers. What the army needed was a rifle to dismount the indian.
The 45-70 was obsoleted by the introduction of smokeless powder and rifles the Spanish used in the Spanish American War. They were kicking our butts in Cuba with their 7mm Mausers until a supply chief came up with a few Gattlin Guns to change the tide of battles. Shortly after that, the US adopted a smaller caliber and smokeless powder.
OK you historians out there. Tear in!
Rafter-S0 -
Rafter, you are basically correct, just a little fuzzy around the edges. The .45-70 405 2.1" government cartridge was an outgrowth of the .50-70 435 13/4" government cartridge that preceded it. The .50-70 was quite capable of downing a horse or man for that matter at up to 600 yards. In fact it was one of the earliest of the "buffalo" cartridges, however, velocity was low and trajectory was high. The .45-70 was developed at Frankfort Arsenal to provide a more efficient cartridge that would have higher velocity and lower trajectory. This all sounds familiar doesn't it. We are still doing it today. These developments also mirrored developments takeing place in Europe where every major power was reducing the calibers of there military catridges. As to the Spanish-American war, the U.S. Army adopted the Winchester-Hotchkiss bolt action rifle in 1879, while the Navy adopted the Remington-Lee bolt action in 1885. Both of these rifles were in caliber .45-70. Neither rifle saw wide use due to budget constraints. In short, the Trapdoor was cheaper to make. In 1892 the Army adopted the .30-40 Krag rifle, again to keep up with foreign developments. When the war started in 1898 there were not enough .30 caliber rifles to go around. Some Army units where still armed with the Trapdoor as were all of the State troops that were called up to fight. The Mauser Model 1892/95 proved to be a better design then the Krag and the 7X57 cartridge proved to be more efficient then the .30-40. Our experience in the war led directly to the development of the 1903 Springfield and the .30-03 and .30-06 cartridges. All the best, Scout 0 -
As usual.....a fine synopsis of the history of U.S. Military cartridges.
Gravedigger...please note that when we converted to the Krag (bolt action) rifle during the Spanish-American war, it used a black powder cartridge, the .30-40 (also known as .30 U.S. Government). The "40" was the number of grains of black powder.
It wasn't until 1903 that the U.S. Military switched to smokeless powder (with the .30-03).0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
7 comments