W RICHARDS OF LONDON SXS 10 GAUGE ID
i must admit, this one has me stumped.
1. exposed hammer SXS
2. under lever
3. 10 gauge
4. 32" damacus BBL's
5. straight stock
6. brass(???)medallion on underside of buttstock
7. " W RICHARDS LONDON LAMINATED STEEL " on rib between BBL's
8. " W RICHARDS " on both sides of reciever in a scrollwork engraved banner
9. case hardened reciever
10. marked on BBL's under forend: proof mark???: crossed swords surmounted by a crown, with illegible marks on the other 3 points of the commpass. " P.N. " " 11 " and the proofmark/hallmark repeated again. both BBL's are marked the same. (P.N.=nitro proofed???)
11. no serial #, no gauge/chamber indicators.
12. extractors, not ejectors
13. no patent dates or model #'s
14. double triggers(1 for each BBL)
this gun needs work. its all there, parts intact. the stock wieghs a ton, and appears to be english walnut. it needs a refinishing. the action has a little play, but it locks up and functions. the case hardening has faded, and the BBL's need a finish restoration. when you remove the forend you can see sharp and vivid damascus patterns. the butt plate is missing. this is in NRA fair condition.
i thought it might be an early WESTLEY RICHARDS piece, but i do not think they made a ten gauge. is this a no name/no value wall hanger that can be cleaned up cheaply, or is it a piece of value that should be proffesionaly restored???when, where, what, who, value, history, info, etc...
i am not up on english guns, please help. mike
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
Edited by - mrmike08075 on 10/24/2002 22:15:39
1. exposed hammer SXS
2. under lever
3. 10 gauge
4. 32" damacus BBL's
5. straight stock
6. brass(???)medallion on underside of buttstock
7. " W RICHARDS LONDON LAMINATED STEEL " on rib between BBL's
8. " W RICHARDS " on both sides of reciever in a scrollwork engraved banner
9. case hardened reciever
10. marked on BBL's under forend: proof mark???: crossed swords surmounted by a crown, with illegible marks on the other 3 points of the commpass. " P.N. " " 11 " and the proofmark/hallmark repeated again. both BBL's are marked the same. (P.N.=nitro proofed???)
11. no serial #, no gauge/chamber indicators.
12. extractors, not ejectors
13. no patent dates or model #'s
14. double triggers(1 for each BBL)
this gun needs work. its all there, parts intact. the stock wieghs a ton, and appears to be english walnut. it needs a refinishing. the action has a little play, but it locks up and functions. the case hardening has faded, and the BBL's need a finish restoration. when you remove the forend you can see sharp and vivid damascus patterns. the butt plate is missing. this is in NRA fair condition.
i thought it might be an early WESTLEY RICHARDS piece, but i do not think they made a ten gauge. is this a no name/no value wall hanger that can be cleaned up cheaply, or is it a piece of value that should be proffesionaly restored???when, where, what, who, value, history, info, etc...
i am not up on english guns, please help. mike
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
Edited by - mrmike08075 on 10/24/2002 22:15:39
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Mike, English shotguns are not my specialty either but I am guessing that this is not a Westley Richards. It could very well be a Belgian or Spanish maker as there were many 10ga., under lever, hammer guns produced by dozens of firms in those two countries. It is too bad the barrels were not marked with a shell length as any marking in milimeters would be a dead give away that it was not English. I doubt that the real company ever used an abbreviation of its name or left off its London address, as it would be too easy to pass off a cheaper make as the real thing. These are just my opinions and others may know more. I hope I'm wrong and the gun is worth a fortune!
Mark T. Christian0 -
Your gun IS NOT a Westley Richards piece, but proof marks indicate British manufacture.
There were knockoff's made, most notably in Birmingham. These were considered trade guns at best and were of nowhere near the quality of the real thing.
Value will be in line with Belgian klunkers, though your gun might be of slightly better quality. A refinish job is out of the question unless you've got nothing else on the agenda.
Nord0 -
My double SxS 10 ga.hammer gun is also marked W. Richards. It was made by H & D Folsom Arms in the United States. Yours does have some differences from mine. Mine does not have a straight stock. If there was any color in mine it is long gone. Mine appears to be Damascus but it may be fake Damascus. I never got around to testing.
My stock cleaned up nicely using a rag dipped in mineral spirits and a toothbrush to cleanout the checkering. Put on a little high grade paste wax and it looks good. If the stock is real bad, I have had good luck using a dilute ammonia solution to remove 50 years of caked on junk that wouldn't come off with mineral spirits. It even left the original finish. Cleaned the metal with a coarse cotton rag and some penetrating oil followed by gun oil.
At gun shows, value on these was about $175 a few years back but I am starting to see them about $250 now. Let me know what you discover.0 -
10 gauge in damascus barrels is more than likely 2 7/8" as that was the standard length of the 10 gauge way back then. The 3.5" came later.
AlleninAlaska
http://www.outdoor-o-rama.com
He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
-- Thomas Paine0 -
Guys...
The proofs tell the story. If made here in the US there will be no such marks. Crown over sword (depending on style) is most probably Birmingham or London. Still, without question, it's English. Birmingham proof is most likely as their makers were noted for the manufacture of trade guns and components.
Could Folsom have used Brit tubes? Certainly! Might damascus tubes have been proofed for nitro charges? Absolutely!
That being said... Nitro charges of the period a century ago weren't the nitro charges of today. And there is always the fact that damascus has thousands of tiny welds that invite corrosion and eventual failure.
In no event is this a piece that I'd take into the field. No matter the real origin, it's still a utility gun of questionable parentage.
Nord0 -
I decided to pull my gun out and go over it with a magnifying glass.
Mine is very similar to yours except it has a semi pistol grip. It has a top lever. It has the brass medallion and does show evidence of being color case hardened. It is marked "London Fine Twist" on the rib. Serial number 6708 on the barrels, fore end, and action. Has 4 "proof marks" on the action and 2 on the barrels. Marked "11" on the underside of the right barrel and "12" on the underside of the left barrel. Marked "F" on each barrel. "H.M." and "J.R." on the underside of the barrels. Has 3 little hash marks in the wood on the underside of the fore end. Has 3 little hash marks in the steel where the fore end lug goes through (assembly mark?) 2-7/8" chambers. Fairly decent wood. Very good checkering. Splinter fore end. Steel butt plate still retains a lot of blue. Simple engraving even on the screw heads.
I always suspected that the "London Fine Twist" and the "proof marks" were spurious but maybe not. I need to do an etch test to see if the bbls. are fluid steel or twist. Research into H & D Folsom Arms Co. of New York shows that they did import guns from England and the continent as well as making their own. Sold under 100+ different trade names. Still say ours are low to medium end guns that were either made by H & D or passed through their hands. Have seen many guns marked "W. Richards" at gun shows but no two alike.0 -
Just perused the British Book of Proofs...No Marks such as P.M.for England listed..Only N.P. [Nitro Proof] used...I'd like to see this gun up close and personal...You in the California area?
I personally think that You have a Belguim Knock Down...So many of these guns were made and Stamped with Noted and Famous Makers Names, with just enough differance in the spelling to squeek by any Copy Right infringement...and thus avoid a Law Suit...You have a digital Camera? ........
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0 -
After our emails back and forth, I have contacted W.Richards in England... Liverpool actually... and they are gun makers.. sent them a description, and expecting to hear from them via email.... The proof mark you described or one similiar is in the blue book but with different lettering... so I contacted W. Richards them selves...
Will post their reply...0 -
i will attempt to put up pictures, or send them to interested parties. i appreciate all those who are attempting to help ID this gun. best regards, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.0 -
If you need a host for the pics.. send them to me and I will post them for you.... 0 -
Smart move...Direct Contact with W. Richards is the way to go....
Captain Kirk, Tech Staff0
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