Matching parts on M1 Garands
There seem to have been a bunch of questions about matching parts of GI issue M1 Garands recently, so....FYI, here's a true story.
I went thru Navy Boot Camp at Bainbridge, MD in 1955. It was a 9-week course, one of which was a so-called "Service Week"...during which we were assigned various duties around the base (mess hall, clean/fix/paint, etc.). Luckily, I was assigned to the firing range.
We were issued '03A3 Springfields for drill, but had to qualify on the range with WWII M1 Garands.
My job was to disassemble, clean, dry, lube, and reassemble them after various Boot Companies had qualified with them....about 120 rifles a day.
SOP was to disassemble the rifle and dunk it (receiver end first) in a 55 gallon drum of GI bore cleaner. The small parts were put in wire mesh baskets and hung in the drum for about 15 minutes, swished up and down a few times, blown off with compressed air, and spread out on a table to dry. We'd then run a bore brush thru the rifle barrels (while they were in the drum), take 'em out blow 'em dry with compressed air, run a couple of wet patches then a couple of dry patches thru the barrels, and let 'em air dry for about a 15-minute smoke break....then lube them up and reassemble them.
If any of these rifles ended up with the same components as when they started, it was an amazing coincidence.
Sooooo....if anybody out there is contemplating buying a surplus GI M1, your chances of getting one with the same parts as it left the factory are pretty slim.
I went thru Navy Boot Camp at Bainbridge, MD in 1955. It was a 9-week course, one of which was a so-called "Service Week"...during which we were assigned various duties around the base (mess hall, clean/fix/paint, etc.). Luckily, I was assigned to the firing range.
We were issued '03A3 Springfields for drill, but had to qualify on the range with WWII M1 Garands.
My job was to disassemble, clean, dry, lube, and reassemble them after various Boot Companies had qualified with them....about 120 rifles a day.
SOP was to disassemble the rifle and dunk it (receiver end first) in a 55 gallon drum of GI bore cleaner. The small parts were put in wire mesh baskets and hung in the drum for about 15 minutes, swished up and down a few times, blown off with compressed air, and spread out on a table to dry. We'd then run a bore brush thru the rifle barrels (while they were in the drum), take 'em out blow 'em dry with compressed air, run a couple of wet patches then a couple of dry patches thru the barrels, and let 'em air dry for about a 15-minute smoke break....then lube them up and reassemble them.
If any of these rifles ended up with the same components as when they started, it was an amazing coincidence.
Sooooo....if anybody out there is contemplating buying a surplus GI M1, your chances of getting one with the same parts as it left the factory are pretty slim.
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TO ADD TO THE ABOVE, IF ANY GRANDS, OR M1 CARBINES HAVE AN ARSENAL REWORK MARKS ON THE STOCK ( LIKE AN) THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHERS, DIFFERENT MARKS, THAT MEANS THE RIFLE WENT TO REWORK, THE CHANCE THAT THE RIFLE COMMING IN (SERIAL #) LEAVING OUT THE OTHER END HAVING ALL MATCHING PARTS (ALL WINCHESTER) ARE LIKE WINNING THE BIG GAME LOTTO!!! 0 -
Xracer, I've heard many vets saying the exact same thing and I have no doubt in my mind that this type of mass cleaning was the norm rather than the exception. I would never expect to see a CMP rack or service grade M1 come through with all of it original parts...it would be an unbelievable stroke of luck.
The problem is that too many begining collectors fall prey to some one telling them that they have a "90% condition WWII issued Winchester M1 Garand". From a collectors standpoint as issued means that at the very least it should have all WWII parts and the correct stock and barrel. Telling someone that it was made in 1942 and then finding out that it has a commercial stock, a post war operating rod, barrel and rear sight assembly, a trigger group from Springfield when the rifle is a Winchester, and an H&R gas cylinder does not make it any where near a Winchester other than the reciever. I've seen people trying to sell these for $1000 and folks fall for it! Even if they buy it with the idea of restoring it themselves, they usually have no idea how expensive these parts can be.
Selling it as an arsenal rework is fine IF it is advertised that way. This is seldom the case. Restorations are fine, I've purchased a few and have restored several myself, IF you advertise the rifle that way.
Restoration is a relative term. If you have a totally complete WWII
Winchester that has the wrong bolt, as a result of your mass cleaning, and you exchange the bolt for a correct Winchester bolt did you restore the rifle? Technicaly yes- but I doubt anyone would care.
I've restored quite a few WWII M1's and have sold them to people and have always said up front that it was a restored rifle. I NEVER ask the premium prices that original rifles are getting, but I do expect to be compensated for my time. The buyer gets a correct M1 and saves his own time by not having to chase down parts at gun shows for several months. I consider people who try to sell these restored rifles as original as less than honest. M1 rifles are bringing big money now a days and I just hate to see new collectors getting burned by dealers who are no up front about their rifles.
Mark T. Christian0 -
The vast majority, perhapos all of the Garands have been "bulk serviced" and or armory rebuilt several times without regard to matching parts. This leads to an interesting corolary: If you see a "matching" Garand, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has been "restored" by some overanxious collector, and it is unlikely to be in true "original" condition.
Have fun, take care that you are not fooled!
Morty0 -
No such thing as matching parts US Service rifles.
We got an early intro to that in basic training.
Unlike many foreign arms all small arms parts with the exception of revolvers are 100% interchangeable. If they weren't,they'd be serial numbered.0 -
Form what I have learned in the past week, and I am by no means an expert, "matching numbers" doesn't mean serial numbers matching. I have found that it means all parts numbers prove that they were all manufacured during the same time period and in the same place as the reciever. I.E. 1941 receiver, 1941 bolt, barrel, trigger group, etc. and all from the same manufacturer (SA, Win, IH, etc,) also with no arsenal refurb or import stamps. Therefore, a rifle with all these qualifications would in fact be a "matching" rifle. But that's just my interpretation of the information given to me by several of our members. I could very well be wrong.
A great rifle with a junk scope,....is junk.0 -
quote:
Form what I have learned in the past week, and I am by no means an expert, "matching numbers" doesn't mean serial numbers matching. I have found that it means all parts numbers prove that they were all manufacured during the same time period and in the same place as the reciever. I.E. 1941 receiver, 1941 bolt, barrel, trigger group, etc. and all from the same manufacturer (SA, Win, IH, etc,) also with no arsenal refurb or import stamps. Therefore, a rifle with all these qualifications would in fact be a "matching" rifle. But that's just my interpretation of the information given to me by several of our members. I could very well be wrong.
A great rifle with a junk scope,....is junk.
No expert... but i wonder how many rifles and carbines
left the factory they were built in w/all matching parts? i have
read when the war was in full swing that everyone buildings these firearms called each builder to see who had what parts to spare underwood was in charge of building the carbine if signor ran
out of firing pins [as an example] they called underwood, underwood mite have found out postal meter had a "extra lot" an was told to send them to :: an so on an so on these guns never the left the factors' [10] as a matching gun......so buyer be ware...i guess its like buying a 1957 original 2 dr.chevy impala in 1999 w/ a rebuilt engine , new fenders an a paint job for $1000 good luck.....Rich G.0 -
The manufacture of M1 Carbines by a consortium of private contractors
known as the "Carbine Manufactures Production Committee" has no parallel with the WWII M1 Rifle production which was headed up by Springfield, the national armory, and one private firm: Winchester.
I wish I had a dollar for every gun show "expert" who I've heard try to convince some new collector that the reason the Winchester M1 for sale on his table has a Springfield barrel is beacuse "they left the factory that way son, Winchester used Springfield barrels, bolts, and stocks too...the price on this all Winchester 'bueaty' is $1500". Wrong, wrong, WRONG!
Winchesters M1's left the factory with Winchester components and Springfield rifles left the armory with all SA parts. Parts were switched in the field, during rebuilds or the types of cleanings we have heard about in previous posts. POST WAR M1 manufactures DID use each others components but that is another topic. The money involved for these WWII rifles is enough to justify getting a few basic facts straight and I don't like to see new collectors getting ripped off as it usually means that they quit and give up in disgust.
Mark T. Christian0
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