'03 springfield/help all experts!!!
1. markings on reciever: U.S. ROCK ISLAND ARSENAL MODEL 1903 412297
2. markings on barrel top behind front sight: H S (over ordanance bomb) 2-44 (under ordanance bomb)
3. the gun is in nra 90% or better. almost flawless wood. barrel is near NIB. rifling is perfect as are the crown and muzzle.
4. the original cleaning kit is in the stock. it has not been used or broken down. the little paper wrappers/ties that hold its contents together are unbroken.
5. it has a correct period long bayonet with original sheath in near perfect condition.
6. the gun is unmolested, wear showing only as darkening on the stock were your hands would go, and a 2 inch long hairline crack in the stock behind the reciever. the barrel apears to have never been fired.
i think the reciever is pre 1910, but the barrel is not. did they rearsenal an unissued bad heat treated barrel gun in 1944???
what is the value of the gun with its accsesories? i cannot figure this one out. this is not mine, but a coworkers. he wants to shoot it, unless it it a collectors piece or worth a lot. thanx, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
2. markings on barrel top behind front sight: H S (over ordanance bomb) 2-44 (under ordanance bomb)
3. the gun is in nra 90% or better. almost flawless wood. barrel is near NIB. rifling is perfect as are the crown and muzzle.
4. the original cleaning kit is in the stock. it has not been used or broken down. the little paper wrappers/ties that hold its contents together are unbroken.
5. it has a correct period long bayonet with original sheath in near perfect condition.
6. the gun is unmolested, wear showing only as darkening on the stock were your hands would go, and a 2 inch long hairline crack in the stock behind the reciever. the barrel apears to have never been fired.
i think the reciever is pre 1910, but the barrel is not. did they rearsenal an unissued bad heat treated barrel gun in 1944???
what is the value of the gun with its accsesories? i cannot figure this one out. this is not mine, but a coworkers. he wants to shoot it, unless it it a collectors piece or worth a lot. thanx, mike.
What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
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RIA receivers from serial #285507 & up were double heat treated and are safe to shoot if in good condition. Without a detailed description of the bolt, I can't tell you if that is safe; it is safe if the the bolt handle is bent down AND swept back, or if it is marked "NS".
It sounds like a typical WWII arsenal rebuilt rifle. I would expect it to sell in the $300-400 range. If it were mine, I'd shoot the heck out of it.
Neal0 -
The single heat treatment of Rock Island Arsenal 1903 rifles ended with number 285506. RIA used he double heat treat system until somewhere near serial number 319921 at which time they began to use nickle steel receivers. This info is from The '03 Era by Clark Campbell. The rifle you mention is well into the nickle steel range. The HS stands for High Standard. HS barrels are considered some of the better ones. Obviously the rifle you mention was rebarreled after 1944. I am not qualified to place a value on the rifle but it is a rebuild, or at least rebarreled rifle, and not very collectable. 0 -
The rifle was made after 8/1/1918. Beginning with s/n 319921, RIA receivers were made of a single heat treated nickel steel. They are so marked on the receiver face but the barrel has to be removed to see it. However, Rock Island Arsenal also intermixed some double heat treated, carbon steel receivers in later shipments but no separation of s/n's was made between nickel and carbon steel receivers.
A definitive test is to try and make a file cut. The nickel steel receiver can be cut by the file but the earlier carbon steel will not.
There were recommendations to destroy RIA receivers below 285,507 and SA receivers below 800,000.
There was one recorded blowup of a later RIA receiver, s/n 445,136 but the record doesn't state if it was carbon or nickel steel.
If a file test indicates the rifle has a carbon steel receiver it
definitely should not be fired.0 -
The rifle itself sounds like a good example of a WWII rebuild. By the time your rifle was rebuilt the '03 was already a 'substitute standard' rifle. Most were rebuilt and put directly into storage. I'm on board with Neal: shoot it and enjoy it. I'm much more interested in the bayonet. These M1905 16" blades are becoming harder to find as time goes by. The blade should be marked by the manufacturer; SA or RIA. How is the blade finished; blued, parkerized, or bright? Springfield made bayonets well into the 1920's but I believe Rock Island stopped at the same time the stopped building the rifles. The M1905 and M1910 scabbards are also getting tough to find in decent condition. There are many Springfield and Garand collectors- the M1905 was the first bayonet issued with M1 rifles- who'd pay good money for that bayonet, if it is as nice as you say. These rifles are common now, but their value will increase over the years like everything else. Try to keep the set together.
Mark T. Christian0 -
Production of the Model 1903 rifle began at Rock Island Arsenal sometime in mid 1904 useing tools sent from Springfield. Initial production was 125 rifles a day. The rifles were numbered in a SEPARATE serial number range starting with number 1. Low number rifles from Rock Island end at serial number 285,507. Shortly after this at serial number 319,921 (1918) they began manufacture of the nickel steel receivers. So your friend's rifle was made sometime in 1922 and is safe to shoot. In 1929 all the low number rifles were supposed to have been collected and sent to Springfield and the receivers destroyed. We all know that they did not get them all as you still see them from time to time. During W.W.II your rifle was sent back to Springfield to be overhauled for war service. The H.S. stands for High Standard who contracted to supply replacement barrels to the government. The 2-44 means February 1944 which is the date the work was done. You do not say if the stock still has the straight grip,finger groove stock or the replacement pistol grip stock. Look for small letters like an "R" on the bolt handle,rear sight,front sight base,trigger or other small parts. If these parts are marked it means that they have been replaced. If you see the letters "NS" it stands for "NICKEL STEEL" and is normal. You do not say if the bayonet is marked R.I.A. or not.I find it strange that the long 1905 bayonet would have been issued with this rifle at this late date as it had been replaced in the service by the 10 inch blade MI bayonet almost two years before and the government was busy grinding down 1905 bayonets to the new 10 inch length,but anything is possible. As to value it is hard to say. The rifle has some collector value,but is not as valuable as a untouched pre war rifle. It's strong point is it's condition. I would think that with the right buyer you could see $500-$700 maybe more. Hope that this has been of some help to you. Scout 0 -
RIA Springfield receivers from s/n 1 to 285,507 were SA class C carbon manganese steel, single heat treated. From s/n 285,507 to 319,921 they were of the same steel but double heat treated. Over s/n 319,921
the material spec changed to a 3.5% nickel steel with a SINGLE heat treatment. Unfortunately, RIA records show the intermixing of receivers with the earlier steel spec in with the later nickel receivers. These intermixed carbon steel receivers probably had the later double heat treat spec for carbon steel receivers since the single heat treat was discontinued at s/n 285,506 but can anyone be sure? I wouldn't bet my life on it. Carbon steel and nickel steel receivers require different heat treatment processes, yet serial numbers were mixed in this group. That's why I'd feel safer with one between 285,507 and 319921 but do the file test on a Rock Island '03 over s/n 319,921 and not fire it if it turns out not to be nickel steel.
The technical material is all in Hatcher's Notebook for the reading. If you're into Springfields, the book is a must. General Julian Hatcher wrote the source book on the '03. He was Chief of Engineering Small Arms in 1918, Officer in Charge of Springfield Armory 1917, Works Mgr 1919-21.0
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