7.62 NATO from a .308 Winchester surplus box!?!?
I thought I had FINALLY put to rest the question of what differentiates 7.62mm from .308Win, but NO, I can't be that lucky I was at Turners today, looking for ammo for my M1A (due for pickup in 10 days, wohoooo!) and they had South African 7.62mm bags of 140 rounds each. Below these bags were plastic boxes labeled .308 Winchester. I asked an employee and he said that .308 and 7.62 were the same...so I yelled NONONONO, they are not! (Actually I didn't yell) I thought that there is at least a difference with the chamber thickness, and I don't want to damage my M1. I told him this and he said that while the two rounds are slightly different, they will both cycle and the "civilian" M1A can use both rounds without problem. This statement runs counter to another gun store whose employee stated that I should ONLY use 7.62 NATO because .308 can damage the M1A's chamber. Can someone PLEASE tell me the truth (or at least their opinion of the truth)?
FYI, I bought one of those bags of "7.62mm" from Turners, opened it and the individual boxes are labled "7.62x51mm Ball M1A2".
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."
Edited by - Palantirion on 09/17/2002 19:44:06
Edited by - Palantirion on 09/19/2002 18:50:00
FYI, I bought one of those bags of "7.62mm" from Turners, opened it and the individual boxes are labled "7.62x51mm Ball M1A2".
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."
Edited by - Palantirion on 09/17/2002 19:44:06
Edited by - Palantirion on 09/19/2002 18:50:00
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I don't know what "chamber thickness" is... however, my understanding is that the only meaningful difference is the casing thickness. This affects internal cartridge volume but not much else. But, then again, I am not an expert, nor a reloader.
However... my M1A will shoot South African, Hirtenberger, Portuguese, Radway, Remington, Winchester, Federal, Sellier... it doesn't really care.
While accuracy needs to be found as every rifle "likes" some ammunition better than others, in the end, I think your worries are groundless. Since you are not reloading, find a retailer with a decent stock, shoot the M1A with a variety of ammunition, find what works best and move on and have fun with the rifle (like I did this AM).
enjoy,0 -
I've used my M1A for both hunting and target shooting for years. It will eat .308 hunting rounds of every type and weight without a hitch and without damage of any sort to any part of the rifle. It'll eat 7.62 equally well, both 147 grain ball and 168 grain match ammo. In short, the M1A is built to take just about anything you put into it, excluding only mind-boggling monster reloads. My recommendation is to pick a bullet weight (I MUCH prefer match ammo, even though I shoot a Standard model) and work on your accuracy. Give your girl a name and love her, and she'll take care of you just fine. Good luck 0 -
"...the .308 was an offshoot of the 7.62x51 NATO development program, in which the goal was to obtain .30-06 performance from a smaller, lighter cartridge for military purposes. (Unless you plan on humping a sh**load of ammo around, its not important for hunting or target shooting.) To do so essentially requires a "hotter" load to achieve the same results, and the .308 Win is essentially an early development in the process that met performance standards but generated pressures in excess of the military specifications."
SAMMI sets the specs for .308 Winchester, case and bullet dimensions, and max pressure. NATO sets the specs for the 7.62x51N. I haven't looked at the specs for a while, but if I recall correctly, SAMMI permits higher max pressure, thinner case wall, and the min/max headspace measurement is slightly different; if memory serves, the .308W has slightly tighter headspace.
Frankly, most shooters either don't know there is a difference, or if they do, they don't think it is significant. Dealers of surplus ammo and rifles often think advantage lies in maintaining the confusion. I have personally spoken to one importer/distributor who advertises both ammo and rifles as ".308 NATO"; it was clear from the response that it is more important to them to make sales than protect their customers. (They said they would replace any rifle that developed excessive headspace shooting .308W. I asked them if they were going to replace the guy's head, too.)
In some rifles, it may not matter that much; in others it is critical. (I am aware of reports of 7.62 Ishapore Enfields showing excessive headspace after shooting a single box of hot .308W.) If you are reloading near max pressure .308W, the difference in case thickness, and therefore case capacity, can be the difference between max pressure and excessive pressure.
It is common in our culture for women to believe they know all there is to know about sex and cooking, simply because they are women. Men, on the other hand, tend to know all there is to know about guns and cars. Both genders are equally deluded.
Trying to persuade somone who "knows" there is no difference between .308W and 7.62x51 NATO differently often is like trying to teach a pig to whistle. You are wasting your time and annoying the pig.
I would never recommend shooting .308W in an old service rifle that has been re-chambered to 7.62 NATO; in fact, I would strongly recommend against it. If you want to shoot 7.62x51 NATO in your modern .308W rifle, I would recommend checking headspace in the rifle against the NATO specs, and checking the dimensions of the lot of cartridges too.
I say again, it is generally a good idea to shoot only the cartridge the rifle is chambered to shoot. If you are going to interchange .308W and 7.62 NATO, do a little checking first. You might prevent damage to your rifle, or yourself.
redcedars
Edited by - redcedars on 09/17/2002 21:34:320 -
You're not going to enjoy your new rifle very much if you worry whether you're going to blow your face off by firing a certain type of commercially manufactured ammunition. I've reported MY personal experience of many years. Redcedars reports his. I suggest you contact Springfield for the final say on what ammo is approved for use in your Springfield rifle, so you'll have at least one representation you perhaps can rely on. Do us a favor and report back on this thread what Springfield tells you. Thanks. Rifleman.308 0 -
One last bit. Go to the Fulton Armory M1A/M14 FAQ for a somewhat technical, but informative, read on the differences/similarities between .308/7.62 ammo. It pretty much comes down to headspace, which is adjustable and varies from rifle to rifle. I wouldn't mind knowing what Springfield characterizes as its optimal M1A headspace, given that it will be the one getting sued if one of its beloved rifles kills its happy owner due to excessive headspace. Again, check back in, if you would, after speaking w/ Springfield (if you choose to do so). 0 -
And... here's another perspective. Possibly the lowest form of life on this planet is lawyers. Personally, I can only find one viable use for a lawyer: a protein base for cat food. Having noted that...
Springfield advertises and spec's the M1A as 7.62 OR 308. Now, considering the line of business they are in (Springfield, not the lawyers) I would suggest that they are very well versed in what the rifle will or will not do. Apparently they believe they can ship a product spec'ing either cartridge. This is not by chance. I would suggest that they would not do so if there was a potential for liability as there is just too much protein base... er, lawyers... walking around looking for any excuse to screw everyone.
Net/net: Springfield spec's either, therefore...
Now that doesn't mean that any and all cartridge variations will perform as well as all others. Accuracy is another story. However, I believe the rifle was designed and built to accomodate either 308 or 7.62, including head spacing. And head spacing, if a factor at all, appears to be the only variation unless one chooses to load a thin wall commercial shell to excess. If so, that has nothing to do with the rifle.
Actually, the M1A manual, page 6, section #5 offers this: "... The risk of a mishap is reduced by using current clean military ammunition or ammunition that complies with the industry performance standards established by.. SAAMI...".
Read: decent quality 308 or 7.62. Either one. Now... in other rifles in other calibers, shooting ammunition not made for the barrel is just plain nuts. But this is not the case.
www.springfieldarmory.com
enjoy,0 -
Sorry Altos, but I just can't resist.
As a little known playwright named Bill Shakespeare once said, "My deeds upon my head! I crave the law." - The Merchant of Venice
Some day, perhaps, a lawyer will save your property, your liberty, or your rights. Or some day, perhaps, a lawyer will deprive you of your property, your liberty, or your rights. Don't blame the lawyer, who is just representing his or her client. Blame the client.
Guess what I do for a living.....0 -
I will have to assume you don't work for Nine Lives or Ralston
Purina (Meow Mix).
"There is no better way to exercise the imagination than the study of the law. No artist ever interpreted nature as freely as a lawyer interprets the truth."
-- Jean Giradoux
Regardless, I (we) digress. I do hope Palantirion enjoys his M1A and declines the opportunity to worry about SAAMI vs military. Your experience with various cartridges coincides with mine. Other than doing something grossly ignorant, there is no issue. As a side note, for pure amusement sake, I compared Federal Gold Match with Portuguese NATO. I had someone load my magazine to blind test it. The results were very revealing, particularly since the NATO cartridge was distinctly more accurate. Shocked me. But, at $129/1000, so be it. It performed even better than my Hirtenberger or Radway Green. Surprised the heck out of me. If you haven't tried it, just for grins acquire a battle pack for $27 at AIM or SOG or ???
And, you will note, no ONE single lawyer joke. Not one !
Have a great (and safe) evening !
enjoy,0 -
Rifleman, I don't think we are disagreeing. I have no doubt you speak truly about your experience with your rifle. There is a huge difference between a modern rifle whose chamber dimensions fall within the parameters of both .308Win and 7.62x51 NATO, and an old bolt re-chambered to 7.62x51 NATO in a Third World armory where quality control may not be the greatest.
The distributor to whom I spoke was passing off old military bolt rifles, originally designed for a max working pressure of around 40,000 lbs, rechambered to 7.62x51 NATO, as .308 Win rifles. They did not test fire the rifles with .308 Win to see if they would hold up, (let alone re-proof at .308 Win proof pressure, which would be appropriate). They didn't know if the rifles had been re-proofed after conversion to 7.62x51 NATO at the armory. The SAMMI max operating pressure of .308 Win is close to the proof pressure for many old bolts, and I don't think anyone would suggest a steady diet of proof loads in any firearm, let alone one which may have excessive headspace for the particular cartridge. I am simply saying there is a difference; in some cases it may be critical.
A shooter next to me on the range once had a case failure; don't know if it was caused by excess pressure or brittle brass, but I will never forget the sound of the shrapnel whistling past my head. Believe me, you do not want to be holding the receiver under your chin when hot gasses escape at 55,000 psi. These gases will escape any way they can, not just out the safety vents, but typically out the magazine well and all aound the bolt/receiver interface, even if the bolt is not blown out. And many older bolts just don't have good escaped gas management in their design. In many cases there will be warning signs of excessive pressure, like a sticking bolt on extraction, or flowing primers, before there is a catastrophic failure. But not always.
We shoot, most of us, for pleasure and sport. I just don't want to see someone get hurt, and so I urge caution.
And frankly, when someone gets hurt shooting .308 Win in an old bolt re-chambered to 7.62x51 NATO after greedy cretins who only want to make a sale tell him it is perfectly safe I hope they do get sued, because they will deserve it.
redcedars0 -
NEVER NEVER NEVERask advise in Turners especially the one in San Bernardino!!! I have a list a mile long of stupid comments from that place I only go in there if I'm desperate. The one that sticks in my head I'll share is "Do you have a .45 brass jag" as I was standing next to the cleaning supplies and the dufus say's "What do you need it for?" I turned walked out and orderd one online. Jeez now I'm wound I'm going to the pump house!
"LIFE IS NOT A JOURNEY TO THE GRAVE WITH THE INTENTION OF ARIVING SAFELY IN ONE PRETTY AND WELL PRESERVED PIECE, BUT, TO SKID ACROSS THE LINE BROADSIDE, THOUGHRLY USED UP, WORN OUT, LEAKING OIL, SHOUTING GERONIMO!!"0 -
Rifleman,
To quote Cool Hand Luke: "Just because its your job doesn't make it right, boss"
Merc
NO! You may not have my guns! Now go crawl back into your hole!
****************************************
"Tolerating things you may not necessarily like is part of being free" - Larry Flynt0 -
A quote from Springfield:
quote:Per our rifle technicians, you can shoot both .308 and 7.62 NATO in the M1A rifles.
Deb, Custom Shop Coordinator
Springfield Inc.
420 West Main St.
Geneseo, IL 61254
(800) 680-6866
customshop@springfield-armory.com
www.ebsart.com
"Live by the three 'R's: Respect, Responsibility and Residuals."0 -
Waiiiittt a minuite!
If we are all in the same page and are talking about the TURNERS OUTDOORSMAN chain in southern CA. I would defenitely have to agree about not asking them critical questions regarding your equipment. No offense to anyone but I lived in San Diego for a couple of years and have had more than my fair share of idiotic replies from these people working over the counter. Just like any retail chain, they hire people who know nothing about what they are selling and pretend to know their stuff.
The last person I dealt with told me that hes got a Delta Elite and Federal Personal Defense 40SW works really good on it. Uhhh....the word dumbass slipped out of my mouth as I walked away.
cheers!
-Operator
Life is simple, living is what makes it complicated.0
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