Beta-C Mags... Which were Pre-Ban?
I recently attended a gun show and there was a guy selling several Beta-C Mags. I purchased one for my AR-15 and noticed that he also had one for the HK MP5 in 9mm. This was marked LEO - Export, so I know it was Post-Ban. He also had one for a Steyr Aug, and a HK G36 and HK93/33/53. The only one I remember them making prior to the ban was the AR-15. Were there others? If so, which ones?
James
James
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Beta did not make a feed tower for the cmag untill after the 94 weapons act, so if you installed any of the other towers it would constitute manufacturing a high capacity feeding device ... the dealer at this link ( http://www.dealernfa.com/ ) used to have a whole page concerning these towers but must have deleted it and now only states:
Post ban towers, need FFL or LE letter
HK G36 Beta C-Mag feed tower $25.00
AUG Beta C-Mag feed tower $25.00
HK 33 Beta C-Mag feed tower $25.00
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Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com0 -
Thanks for confirming. I thought something was fishy! Man, he wanted a bunch for the HK G36 mags, too! Crooked punks...
"When the going gets tough... the tough gets a bigger gun"0 -
kk:
I understand the legal position you state. However, I am confused as to how changing the tower on a pre-ban C-Mag can be illegal, when the ArmaLite conversion kits to convert M14 magazines to AR-10 magazines are not. In each case, the converted magazine cannot be used in the original firearm until converted back by changing the parts again. Can you explain the difference?
Edited by - JudgeColt on 09/15/2002 01:47:400 -
Judge I agree with you completely, this is just the info I have been told by many and have seen on this (and other) NFA dealers site ... when you change the tower your not really manufacturing anything ... not increasing the available total number of high capacity feeding devises ... I understand it is also illegal to convert other types of drums for other weapons such as the Suomi for the HK94 or SP-89 ... maybe there is something different because it's a drum, not just a mag ... I've read through and through the regulations and have not found anything anywhere that says it can't be done so the info may be incorrect (as I believe it should be) but as I said, that is what I've been told by many, including dealers ... better safe than sorry.
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Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com0 -
It may have something to do with their ruling on modified mags:(para-phrased)
If the magazine (after modification) will no longer function in the weapon for which it was originally designed, then it is considered a new manufacture and must conform to any laws existing at the time of "manufacture" (modification)
... but this still doesn't explain why its ok for Armalite AR-10 type mag conversions ... does it?
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Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com
Edited by - kimberkid on 09/15/2002 09:50:220 -
kk:
Your second response is the one that has been suggested to me. While it may not be supported by the letter of the regulations, I have been told that the powers that be are taking the position.
If that is true, then, like you, I do not see how the ArmaLite conversion kits can be legal. Maybe it is the "drum" factor, but I do not see how that can be it with no reference to it in regulations.
I have considered asking for a ruling on this issue, but I hate to think I might learn my AR-10 magazine conversion kits are illegal and then I would have "guilty knowledge" and could not claim ignorance.
Curious.0 -
It has to do with the drum being pre-ban as well as the tower in the case of the beta-C. With the Armalite, you are taking a 20rd mag for a M-14 and making it fit a AR-10. You are not making a mag, but just modifying it to fit a different gun. I have seen the converted Soumi drums sold as legal for the general public as well. The key is, you must not use a post-ban magazine in any way. To make a post-ban mag hold more than 10rds is illegal.
As an example, If you took a Soumi pre-ban drum and a UZI 25rd pre-ban mag, cut the top off the Soumi and the bottom off the UZI, welded them together, you've taken two pre-ban mags and made them one. There is nothing illegal there. Now, you take a 10rd post-ban HK 94/SW5 magazine and perform the same operation for an HK 9mm, then you are in trouble. You have taken a 10rd post-ban mag and made it hold more than 10rds. The key is the ingredients. Nothing can be post-ban.
In the case of the Beta-c mags, I never saw anything, but AR15/M16 ones before the ban. The G36 wasn't available at that time, but the Aug and the HK 93 were inexistance, but they had not yet made the Beta's for them to the best of my knowledge, before the ban. Hence there are no pre-ban towers for those guns, hence there are no legal pre-ban beta drums for those guns. If they could adapt the beta drum body to a pre-ban Aug mag or a pre-ban HK93 mag, then they'd have something. They'd have to use the pre-ban mag body in conjunction with the pre-ban Beta drum to make the final product.
The problem is the tower itself. Although it is not a magazine, it can hold more than 10rds on its own before going into either side of the drum. MWG made extra towers for their 90 rd drum. They were also marketed the tower as a "stand alone" 20rd magazine, I've sold them. USA made SKS drums out of AK drums. Yes, in that case the drum no longer fit the original gun, but I don't think that is a requirement, rather a unfortunate reality.
It is some what confusing all around on this stuff. Then again you have several companies making "replacement" mag bodies for all sorts of guns. You had better be able to produce a damaged original pre-ban mag body if you use one of these. Some of these replacements will be obvious as the companies making them and marking them now did not make the mag before the ban. In the case of the Scherer Glock mags, they made the 29-33rd long ones, but they had never made the standard length ones before the ban. So if you have one that is a 15-17rd mag and it says "Scherer" on it, there is no way it is a pre-ban. And if they ever decide to enforce that law, you may be hosed, unless you can produce the pre-ban factory Glock mag body that you had to replace because it was damaged.0 -
This topic was discussed in the November 2000 and March 2001 issues of Small Arms Review. Attorney James Bardwell printed two detailed letters he received from the BATF Technologies Branch. In a nut shell the acting head of the branch states that the modification of any high capacity magazine, which cannot be used, or readily restored for use, in the firearm originaly designed for it, would be considered the manufacutre of a NEW high capacity magazine. The ATF used the example of certain other small modifications, such as adding an extra slot to the body of the magazine which would not qualify as new manufacture. The letters are too long for me to print them out.
Date of manufacture of the magazine(s)makes no difference. IRA, clearly cutting the top of a Soumi drum and WELDING the top of an UZI magazine to it is manufacturing a new magazine. I mean if welding two parts of two totaly different magazines together is not manufacturing a NEW magazine, then what is manufacturing? To be legal the drum would still have to work in the original host gun. You may want to read the full text of these two BATF letters- although as yet I do not believe they are RULINGS. I can see why many dealers are running scared on this matter. I'd never sell any such item to a private individual. Check with Small Arms Review and see if you can either get copies of these letters or maybe down load them.
Mark T. Christian0 -
I have seen the modified Soumi drums in SGN, and they are (or were) pretty open about marketing them for a variety of firearms to anyone with the substantial amount of cash necessary to buy them. Of course, the Maadi Griffin proved that just because it's advertized in SGN doesn't mean it's legal. It does occur to me, though, that in the case of the Soumi drum modification, how would they ever prove when it was modified unless someone confessed? I think that would even be harder to prove than when a folding stock was added to a pre-'94 Mini-14 If I was going to take any two post ban magazines/drums into the garage and do some cutting and welding, I don't think I'd tell anyone a word about it, ever. I'm just glad that, back in 1993, I was able to modify several of those Suomi drums for my M11/9, as well as the Uzi I'm planning on buying.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.0 -
To the best of my knowledge the Ar10 mag conversions are legal because the mags(in this case M14 mags) were made prior to the crime bill. The Armalite conversion kit requires the use of the existing M14 floorplate as proof of an original pre ban mag. Also after the conversion the mag should work in the M14 and the Ar10. Armalite inc. no longer sells the mag conversion kit unless you send them your pre ban mag first. Rayzor25 0
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