UPDATE IV: high-pressure handload and damaged M29
REVIEW: The last time we discussed this issue, S&W's service dept. had, in addition to replacing the cylinder I damaged with the handload, installed a defective rear sight which wasn't ordered or needed, scratched the barrel in the process, and sent the gun back to me as though all were well. I was willing to tolerate the minor scratches but not the tilted sights, and sent it back with the understanding it would be corrected and sent back ASAP. Instead, the repairman, without consulting me, took it to the refinishing people, who promptly stripped the finish, left the thing set, and left town for two weeks. I was pretty upset, and all the experts here were supportive with the exception of Der Gebirgsjager, who thought I overreacted and advised me to be more patient.
UPDATE: One of the experts gave me the name of Smith's CEO, to whom I wrote a letter detailing the history of the problem(s) with the service dept. and requesting his assistance. I then waited a few days and sent a copy to the director of customer service. He emailed a letter to me after a few days telling me that the CEO had consulted with him and asked him to handle the matter. In his letter he apologized for the delays I had experienced, tried to explain the actions of the repairman, and acknowledged that the fellow should have consulted with me before sending the gun to be refinished. His letter helped in some ways, but was tainted with an unfortunate denial that the repairman had knowingly installed a defective part(rear sight).
Shortly after receiving the letter the director called and left a message on my answering machine, wanting to make sure that I had received his letter. He said that he had shipped the gun back to me and "was sure that I would be satisfied." A day or so later I received the gun, examined it, and here's what I found this time:
-Both grips had been chipped -one in two places. Someone had apparently knocked the front of the grips on the bottom side against a narrow, rough object, chipping both right where they meet in the middle. The groove created is too deep to sand out and refinish.
-The hole on the inside of one grip, into which the pin which holds the grip in place fits, was crushed toward the rear, allowing the grip to move back and forth with recoil.
-There was a ding in the crown of the barrel right at the end of one of the lands, resembling the imprint of a center punch mark.
I wonder if Der Gebirgsjager's patience would still have held up after this turn of events. There was simply no way this damage had been there before, or you can bet I would have noticed it. So I wrote the director of customer service again, told him what had happened, gently refuted his defense of the indefensible actions of the repairman, and tried to work with him to find a solution. I told him that I would be taking the gun to the range soon and if the accuracy was acceptable I wouldn't worry about the damaged crown. If the accuracy wasn't up to snuff, then something would have to be done. I told him I didn't know what to do about the damaged grips, but that I felt a new pair from the company was in order.
He responded with an email apologizing for the damage, and said that though the company had no grips like that anymore, he had found a pair of used ones in "very good condition" which he was sending me. He said to let him know how things turned out at the range.
The grips he sent are actually more attractive and comfortable than the originals, but at least one is warped, leaving a gap at the front and bottom large enough to expose the frame when viewed from underneath. I think if I can find someone who will loan me a couple of special tools I can make the grips work, but it wouldn't be an easy job.
I went to a nearby range with a friend today and fired six three-shot groups at fifty yards. Here's where things get uncertain, and I would like some advice. Keep in mind that I haven't done any serious shooting for 20 years or so, and have no significant experience with a handgun. However I did use a solid rest, and didn't flinch at all -as far I could detect. I am 44 years old and could use bifocles -the rear sight was a bit blurry, but I didn't seem to have a problem aligning it.
The first four groups were a factory load, American Eagle brand, 240 gr. HP; the last two were my "high-pressure handload"(which is no longer a problem), also a 240 gr. HP. The factory load groups measured(from the centers of the holes -correct me if that is the wrong way to do it) 2-5/8", 1", 2-3/8", and 1-5/16". I think that that was the correct order, but I may have the last three turned around(my friend took the targets down and we got them mixed up). I had a little problem getting the windage right, and so each group was located horizontally at a different place on the paper. Vertically the two smaller groups were 1-2" beneath the bull, while two of the six shots in the two larger groups were ?" or so above the bull, and a third(the first shot fired) was 2" above the bull.
The handload shot several inches high, strangely enough. My friend fired a 1-3/8" group with this load, about 4-1/2" high and approx. 3" to the left. I only got one of these on the paper -again 4-1/2" high , but 2-1/4" to the right.
SOOOOO. . . . I have to determine if this is "acceptable" accuracy and report to Smith's director of customer service. Part of me reasons(and you can evaluate my reasoning) that if the damaged crown were causing problems, we wouldn't have been able to keep half the groups within 1 to 1-1/2". But the other part of me reasons that with a solid rest there should have been more consistency, at least with the factory load.
So what think ye? Should I suspect the dented crown contributed to the inconsistent groups and refuse to accept it(or refuse to accept it regardless, on the ground that they shouldn't have sent it back without fixing it)? Or should I rather suspect that my inexperienced shooting is the issue, and just forget about their carelessness with the gun? [NOTE: Remember also that there is a very slight dogleg in this gun from the barrel not being centered in the frame -each bullet must make a minute turn to the right once it contacts the rifling. Might this contribute to the inconsistency?] Would appreciate some swift replies if possible; am trying to determine if I want to replace this thing with one of a couple of reasonably-priced 629's whose auctions will close Wed. and Thur.
[P.S.: The handload is thoroughly safe now, extracts easily, and is very comfortable to shoot -should make a great short-range practice round.]
UPDATE: One of the experts gave me the name of Smith's CEO, to whom I wrote a letter detailing the history of the problem(s) with the service dept. and requesting his assistance. I then waited a few days and sent a copy to the director of customer service. He emailed a letter to me after a few days telling me that the CEO had consulted with him and asked him to handle the matter. In his letter he apologized for the delays I had experienced, tried to explain the actions of the repairman, and acknowledged that the fellow should have consulted with me before sending the gun to be refinished. His letter helped in some ways, but was tainted with an unfortunate denial that the repairman had knowingly installed a defective part(rear sight).
Shortly after receiving the letter the director called and left a message on my answering machine, wanting to make sure that I had received his letter. He said that he had shipped the gun back to me and "was sure that I would be satisfied." A day or so later I received the gun, examined it, and here's what I found this time:
-Both grips had been chipped -one in two places. Someone had apparently knocked the front of the grips on the bottom side against a narrow, rough object, chipping both right where they meet in the middle. The groove created is too deep to sand out and refinish.
-The hole on the inside of one grip, into which the pin which holds the grip in place fits, was crushed toward the rear, allowing the grip to move back and forth with recoil.
-There was a ding in the crown of the barrel right at the end of one of the lands, resembling the imprint of a center punch mark.
I wonder if Der Gebirgsjager's patience would still have held up after this turn of events. There was simply no way this damage had been there before, or you can bet I would have noticed it. So I wrote the director of customer service again, told him what had happened, gently refuted his defense of the indefensible actions of the repairman, and tried to work with him to find a solution. I told him that I would be taking the gun to the range soon and if the accuracy was acceptable I wouldn't worry about the damaged crown. If the accuracy wasn't up to snuff, then something would have to be done. I told him I didn't know what to do about the damaged grips, but that I felt a new pair from the company was in order.
He responded with an email apologizing for the damage, and said that though the company had no grips like that anymore, he had found a pair of used ones in "very good condition" which he was sending me. He said to let him know how things turned out at the range.
The grips he sent are actually more attractive and comfortable than the originals, but at least one is warped, leaving a gap at the front and bottom large enough to expose the frame when viewed from underneath. I think if I can find someone who will loan me a couple of special tools I can make the grips work, but it wouldn't be an easy job.
I went to a nearby range with a friend today and fired six three-shot groups at fifty yards. Here's where things get uncertain, and I would like some advice. Keep in mind that I haven't done any serious shooting for 20 years or so, and have no significant experience with a handgun. However I did use a solid rest, and didn't flinch at all -as far I could detect. I am 44 years old and could use bifocles -the rear sight was a bit blurry, but I didn't seem to have a problem aligning it.
The first four groups were a factory load, American Eagle brand, 240 gr. HP; the last two were my "high-pressure handload"(which is no longer a problem), also a 240 gr. HP. The factory load groups measured(from the centers of the holes -correct me if that is the wrong way to do it) 2-5/8", 1", 2-3/8", and 1-5/16". I think that that was the correct order, but I may have the last three turned around(my friend took the targets down and we got them mixed up). I had a little problem getting the windage right, and so each group was located horizontally at a different place on the paper. Vertically the two smaller groups were 1-2" beneath the bull, while two of the six shots in the two larger groups were ?" or so above the bull, and a third(the first shot fired) was 2" above the bull.
The handload shot several inches high, strangely enough. My friend fired a 1-3/8" group with this load, about 4-1/2" high and approx. 3" to the left. I only got one of these on the paper -again 4-1/2" high , but 2-1/4" to the right.
SOOOOO. . . . I have to determine if this is "acceptable" accuracy and report to Smith's director of customer service. Part of me reasons(and you can evaluate my reasoning) that if the damaged crown were causing problems, we wouldn't have been able to keep half the groups within 1 to 1-1/2". But the other part of me reasons that with a solid rest there should have been more consistency, at least with the factory load.
So what think ye? Should I suspect the dented crown contributed to the inconsistent groups and refuse to accept it(or refuse to accept it regardless, on the ground that they shouldn't have sent it back without fixing it)? Or should I rather suspect that my inexperienced shooting is the issue, and just forget about their carelessness with the gun? [NOTE: Remember also that there is a very slight dogleg in this gun from the barrel not being centered in the frame -each bullet must make a minute turn to the right once it contacts the rifling. Might this contribute to the inconsistency?] Would appreciate some swift replies if possible; am trying to determine if I want to replace this thing with one of a couple of reasonably-priced 629's whose auctions will close Wed. and Thur.
[P.S.: The handload is thoroughly safe now, extracts easily, and is very comfortable to shoot -should make a great short-range practice round.]
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Quit dealing with Smith!!Take it to a good private Gunsmith and see what he tells you.The gun probably came back with more damage because the Tech didnt appreciate you getting him chewed out.Dont deal with Smith anymore please its just pointless frustration.It would have to be one hell of a dent in the crown to throw off accracy like that take and have a good Gunsith look at it the barrel could be bent slightly and you just cant tell.A very slight bend in the barrel can be deceptive with factory lower pressure loads and show with a "hot" handload with higher pressure and the bullet exiting the barrel at a much higher velocity.
Eric S. Williams
Edited by - E.Williams on 08/21/2002 01:10:48
Edited by - E.Williams on 08/21/2002 01:13:320 -
Gee, since I'm so prominently mentioned and obviously made an impression, I hope I get in here first!
So, let's see......S&W repaired your cylinder situation. Apparently your sight is o.k. now. They refinished your revolver, again apparently to your satisfaction (as you voiced no criticism). They sent you a new pair of grips (with which you're less than happy--but which seem to have potential). Your revolver shoots groups from a 1" best to a 2 5/8" worst at (did I read you right?) FIFTY yards. You got personal attention from the CEO.
Well, Sir--terrible company. Think you should sell the M-29 ASAP and never take another chance on a product made by S&W.0 -
All of my handguns have Pachmayr grips on them, except for
a M-13 Smith with Herrets. I have never really like the Smith
grips, except the target ones from the 40's-50's. As for the
groups at fifty yards, I would be very happy with those size
groups myself.
Don't send flowers when I die. Send money now, I can buy more ammo.0 -
I guess Eric has had some bad dealings with Smith?
I have not sent anything to Smith's service dept., but as factory
alternative consider the Performance Center. They are good guys
in there and are on site at the Smith Factory. I am sure they
appreciate a man's firearms more than the average factory type worker.
It always sucks when things don't get fixed well. I went through 3
rifles from Marlin due to the porting being mis-alligned. Your
accuracy sounds decent considering you aren't in the habit of shooting the gun. Shoot more, shoot more often.
"a Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean amother"0 -
Ive never had a bad experience with any Smith revolver or auto-loader but this is the third time he has been here after sending his gun to Smith and either not been pleased with the work or had something damaged so I cant help but say why keep sending it back.I now I wouldnt have especially after that re-finish fiasco(sp?)
Eric S. Williams0 -
You may have a point.
I like the perf. center cuz you can call and talk to someone like
Jimmy Rae, send them the gun and know that he or one of a few people will work on it. They are a small group in their little hanger.
At least Smith is trying to take care of the prob, but it is
disheartening to lose faith in a company you trust because you feel their service is sub-par.
Oh yeah, and I prefer Hogue grips. I just like the way they feel, and they don't chip!
"a Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean amother"0 -
It seems to me that if you pay the asking price for a Smith and you get as near perfection as they can make it, you got what you paid for. If you send it back to the FACTORY to be repaired it should be returned in factory new condition. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR POOR CRAFTSMAN SHIP other than poor craftsman. The more they work on it the worse it will get.
If you take your car to the dealer for repair and it runs well upon completion, but you have a dent in the fender you ain't going to be happy.
bwa: I've stopped buying Smith for that exact reason. I grant you I'm a man who likes perfection, but damnit I paid for it I expect no less. BTW I'm a craftsman and it would make me sick to scratch, dent,or other wise screw up a man's machinery.
Respect for self Respect for others Responsible for all actions0 -
quote:
Some guns are lemons, why keep them?
Sax' you got that right on! Someday I'll post my history with four (4!) Mateba 44's.... Two years & two hundred dollars (transfer fees, shipping, tax, etc.) I finally got my money back from the importer. I came away feeling lucky I still had all my fingers.0 -
The way I read it, it was you who blew up the pistol. Smith could have rejected it for repairs and you'd have had a parts gun. I suspect they had to do some frame straightening and buggered up the original sight and maybe the grips in the process. I suspect also that the frame job marked the finish and it had to get reblued. You're lucky to end up with a shooting pistol at no cost. I agree with anothers' reply to take it to a good pistolsmith and get his view on making it right then sell it because you'll never be happy with it
P.S. In some restaurants when you complain about a meal and send it back they'll spit in your soup.0
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