UPDATE III: high-pressure handload and damaged M29
[Captkirk: This update seems to me to be somewhat outside the parameters of the Experts forum, but still not quite appropriate for General Discussion. I wasn't sure which to use, but since I still had a question or two for people, I decided to leave it here. I hope that this situation will be cleared up soon, rendering further posting about it unnecessary.]
For those who are interested in this affair but aren't familiar with the background, see UPDATE II on page 8(as of this writing), June 29th, with July 1st being the last reply.
You'll recall that the S&W warranty repairman had returned my gun to me, but had replaced a rear sight that I NEVER asked him to replace, with a defective one which tilted to the left. He also had screwed the barrel in in order to turn the front blade so that it tilted to match the notch in the defective rear sight. I was upset but didn't want to tie up the gun in their shop another 3-4 weeks if I didn't have to; I thought that I would just ask the guy to send me a good rear sight, and that I could turn the barrel back to 12:00 myself. A few of you gave me some instruction on how to do that. But after looking into the hassle and possible expenditure involved, I decided I would ask the S&W guy how long it would take him to correct the situation if I sent it back. He said he could get on it right away, and get it back to me within a few days if the sights were all he had to do.
So I sent it back and waited...and waited. Then after about ten days I received a letter stating that they had received the gun and it would be 2-3 weeks until it was sent back. I was upset again and left a message on the voice mail of the customer service lady, telling her that the repairman had told me he could do the job quickly and that I wanted the gun fixed and sent back ASAP.
I received a reply from her on my answering machine a few days later saying that she had talked to the repairman and that he had taken the gun to the refinishing dept. to be refinished, and that the staff there had left and wouldn't be back to do the job for two weeks. I was furious. Once again the guy and whoever else was involved didn't read my instructions. I NEVER told him that I wanted it refinished; I merely asked him to try not to put any more scratches in the barrel, as he had the first time when he turned it(Though aggravating, they weren't that serious -only visible at a certain angle to the light). I left another no-nonsense message on her voice mail, telling her to send someone and get that gun out of the refinishing dept. immediately, have the man do what I asked him to do and nothing else, and send the thing back to me.
Today she called back and left a message stating sheepishly that the repairman went to the refinishing dept. to get the gun and discovered that they had already stripped it, and that there was nothing they could do for me until the refinishing crew got back.
You can imagine how I felt -a NIB gun with 100% finish sent to be refinished because of a warranty repairman who doesn't read his customer's instructions, tying up the gun at least another three weeks, with no assurance that it will come back with the sights fixed when it does get here.
So here is what we have: S&W currently has a fantastically liberal warranty policy in which they will repair at no charge any age gun damaged by the customer, and pay shipping both ways. The only catch is that they don't do what you want them to do, they do things you don't want them to do, they hold your gun weeks longer than they say they will, and send it back to you with defective parts and poor workmanship.
As I told the Customer Service Dept. today, this is the most outrageous situation I've ever faced as a consumer. All the repairman had to do if he wasn't sure what I wanted was call me and ask before he proceeded(I left my number in each letter for this purpose -that in fact is what they tell the customer to do when sending in a gun for repair.). Tell me if I'm being unreasonable to expect some sort of redress from the company. Is the fact that they don't charge anything an excuse for ignoring my instructions and making a mess of things?
I've decided to write a thorough letter to someone in the company outlining my grievances. I'm soliciting your advice here. The Customer Service person I talked to gave me the name of the head of that Department, but I tend to think I should write to a manager or higher. What do you think? If so, how can I find out the right person to write? What else would you suggest? The BBB maybe?
Thanks again for listening and for your advice.
For those who are interested in this affair but aren't familiar with the background, see UPDATE II on page 8(as of this writing), June 29th, with July 1st being the last reply.
You'll recall that the S&W warranty repairman had returned my gun to me, but had replaced a rear sight that I NEVER asked him to replace, with a defective one which tilted to the left. He also had screwed the barrel in in order to turn the front blade so that it tilted to match the notch in the defective rear sight. I was upset but didn't want to tie up the gun in their shop another 3-4 weeks if I didn't have to; I thought that I would just ask the guy to send me a good rear sight, and that I could turn the barrel back to 12:00 myself. A few of you gave me some instruction on how to do that. But after looking into the hassle and possible expenditure involved, I decided I would ask the S&W guy how long it would take him to correct the situation if I sent it back. He said he could get on it right away, and get it back to me within a few days if the sights were all he had to do.
So I sent it back and waited...and waited. Then after about ten days I received a letter stating that they had received the gun and it would be 2-3 weeks until it was sent back. I was upset again and left a message on the voice mail of the customer service lady, telling her that the repairman had told me he could do the job quickly and that I wanted the gun fixed and sent back ASAP.
I received a reply from her on my answering machine a few days later saying that she had talked to the repairman and that he had taken the gun to the refinishing dept. to be refinished, and that the staff there had left and wouldn't be back to do the job for two weeks. I was furious. Once again the guy and whoever else was involved didn't read my instructions. I NEVER told him that I wanted it refinished; I merely asked him to try not to put any more scratches in the barrel, as he had the first time when he turned it(Though aggravating, they weren't that serious -only visible at a certain angle to the light). I left another no-nonsense message on her voice mail, telling her to send someone and get that gun out of the refinishing dept. immediately, have the man do what I asked him to do and nothing else, and send the thing back to me.
Today she called back and left a message stating sheepishly that the repairman went to the refinishing dept. to get the gun and discovered that they had already stripped it, and that there was nothing they could do for me until the refinishing crew got back.
You can imagine how I felt -a NIB gun with 100% finish sent to be refinished because of a warranty repairman who doesn't read his customer's instructions, tying up the gun at least another three weeks, with no assurance that it will come back with the sights fixed when it does get here.
So here is what we have: S&W currently has a fantastically liberal warranty policy in which they will repair at no charge any age gun damaged by the customer, and pay shipping both ways. The only catch is that they don't do what you want them to do, they do things you don't want them to do, they hold your gun weeks longer than they say they will, and send it back to you with defective parts and poor workmanship.
As I told the Customer Service Dept. today, this is the most outrageous situation I've ever faced as a consumer. All the repairman had to do if he wasn't sure what I wanted was call me and ask before he proceeded(I left my number in each letter for this purpose -that in fact is what they tell the customer to do when sending in a gun for repair.). Tell me if I'm being unreasonable to expect some sort of redress from the company. Is the fact that they don't charge anything an excuse for ignoring my instructions and making a mess of things?
I've decided to write a thorough letter to someone in the company outlining my grievances. I'm soliciting your advice here. The Customer Service person I talked to gave me the name of the head of that Department, but I tend to think I should write to a manager or higher. What do you think? If so, how can I find out the right person to write? What else would you suggest? The BBB maybe?
Thanks again for listening and for your advice.
0
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bwa,
I believe I would contact Robert L. Scott, president
and chief executive officer of Smith & Wesson, at this address:
Smith & Wesson
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
It sounds as though you have not had much luck with the customer
service 800 number. I would explain everything that has happened to your M29 to Mr. Scott. Because, from what you have said the actions by
the Service Dept. have been inexcusable. I would be extremely upset
if the same occured to one of mine.
You could also consider a BBB complaint. I think I would go with
contacting Mr. Scott and see where that goes first.
Don't send flowers when I die. Send money now, I can buy more ammo.0 -
Whoooa, Son! --Well, you asked for opinions, so I'm going to give you an honest one. This reminds me of the little old lady that spilled McDonald's hot coffee on her lap. The injured, outraged consumer that caused the problem to begin with, whether inadvertently and innocently or not, and now demands that the manufacturer not only correct their mistakes, but do so just exactly the way they want it done. You know, the folks working in the repair section of S&W are human too. Maybe they never should have returned it to you with a cockeyed barrel and leaning rear sight; but look who screwed it up to start with. We'll assume that they originally sent out a gun in perfect condition, and received one back in defective condition. Maybe an apprentice worked on your gun and someone failed to inspect it before they sent it back. Maybe when you sent it back again the barrel wrench slipped and marred the finish to an extent they couldn't in good conscience send it back without refinishing it. Accidents can happen, and mistakes can be made. If they sent it back in cosmetically worse condtion I'm certain you'd howl about that. We're talking about an old line manufacturer here that for the most part has produced excellent guns and given good repair service, and has a reputation to uphold in a cutthroat business. Sure, out of the millions of guns they've made and serviced I'm sure they've screwed up a few; but I'd like to know what percentage of the whole that figure would represent. I think you should exhibit a little patience and be thankful that they're willing to correct your mistakes. 0 -
I have 3 of S&W products ALL of which had to be sent back to the factory.
1. Model 10 they failed to ream one chamber.
2. 908 Split case of the third round. Chamber was made too large.
3 422. Won't feed, extract, shoots all over the place. I've spent more on shipping than the gun cost.
S&W managed to scar the finish on all three guns, bugger screw heads etc.
If there is quality at S&W they must have taken the days off when all of mine were there.
I tried to get satisfaction but got the BIG hustle. Would NOT buy another Smith on a bet.
Respect for self Respect for others Responsible for all actions0 -
Get you a new company to do business with all thatis rediculous.If it was me I wouldnt have sent any of my guns back to them.I hate that you had to deal with that but learn from it.Dont send them any more work and dont put any more money into that company if they dont remed the situation.I would do like Bama55 said and try the S&W ceo but if he fails to help let him know he just lost alot of business and a customer who appears to be extremely loyal to S&W firearms.They are losing alot of their market anyway so losing even more would hurt even worse.I am biased anyway I wont buy any new revolvers If I get me a new revolver I buy a old one from back in the days revolvers were the main carry gun and all thequality was taken serious today its all semi-autos.Get rid of the M29 and get a older M27 and if it breaks dont give it to smith find you a good first rate gunsmith.
Eric S. Williams
Edited by - E.Williams on 07/18/2002 15:09:360 -
Did you press one for English! 0 -
DG,
I disagree with the piece you wrote about how bwa is acting in a similar manner to the hot coffee person. S&W has seriously screwed up this mans request for service on more than one occasion and it is none of his fault that they have done so. S&W should be kissing his butt right now, instead they offer him nothing but excuses, and that is inexcuseable.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC0 -
DG,
I respect your opinion, and your points are thoughtfully received. But to compare me to the lady who sued McDonald's I think is grossly unfair. Let's talk this over a bit.
I fully acknowledge my responsibility for damaging the cylinder on this gun; consequently I fully expected to pay for its replacement and would have been pleased to do so(and still would be). You write that I 'demand...that they correct my mistakes'. That is a gross distortion of my handling of things. In my initial letter I simply informed them that my reload bulged the cylinder and therefore it would have to be replaced. Does that sound like the woman with the coffee?? Furthermore, I am very tolerant of human error, being quite experienced myself in the practice of it. But human error is not the issue here. I'll explain myself in a moment.
But first let me address your statement, "Maybe they never should have returned it to you with a cockeyed barrel and leaning rear sight; but look who screwed it up to start with." Perhaps you could explain your reasoning here. Are you telling me that my reloading mistake somehow excuses a professional warranty service department from doing professional work? If not, what are you saying?(By the way, they told me that there is only one man in that department -the guy I talked to. That being the case, I would hope that he is beyond the apprentice stage.). Let me provide you with another bit of information which may help you understand the sight problem better: When I discussed the issue with the repairman, he told me that they get rear sights from the factory and that it's not uncommon for some to be out of square like that. So I don't think we can call this a "mistake". What obviously happened was that he was aware that some rear sights were like that, and instead of finding one to install that wasn't defective, he decided to leave the defective one on the gun and turn the barrel so that the front blade would match.
No, the issue is not them being merely human or making mistakes, etc. I can handle stuff like that. What I find inexcusable is their utter disregard for commonly known and expected standards of communication. Here is an example: they tell the customer who sends a gun for repair that "...a letter of instructions should be enclosed with the gun..." and "when your revolver arrives for service, it will be VERY CAREFULLY inspected, TOGETHER WITH YOUR LETTER OF INSTRUCTIONS(capitalization mine)" I enclosed my "letter of instructions" as I was told. Did they "very carefully" inspect it??? I don't know about you, DG, but when someone tells me they will do this or that, especially if it's in writing, I just expect them to keep their word. Is that asking too much? Or does the fact that I was responsible for the problem excuse them from doing so? I don't think so. Here's another example: they also tell the customer in their instructions for getting service done that "...no actual work will be commenced before receiving your approval..." Did they keep these words when they shipped the gun off to the refinishing dept. without calling me first(and telling me it would take an extra 2-3 weeks)?
This is my problem with Smith. I think if you were in my shoes, you'd see things a little differently.0 -
Okay,
Have been following this for some time now. I agree w/ Der, Michael and Robs, sorta. Remember this gun did come apart, but I never did hear a reasonable conclusion. I did have a very bad experience w/ S&W
years ago on an a new M-13, I believe that was the model. .357/4" heavy barrel. Teaching firearms safety and the damn thing blew the forcing cone out w/.38 Special. Yes the bore and cylinder were free from oil. Ammo was R-P. Range master had to use a mallet to open the cylinder. Alerted R-P and they jumped on the situation. S&W just said to take it to their warranty/repair station. I did this. They replaced the barrel and reblued the cylinder. Now this arm was only about $200.00 retail. I would have thought that they would have replaced the complete pistol. I gave up on S&W after this experience and truly lack of concern about safety. I ended up cutting the pistol instead of selling. My $00.020 -
BWA.
We were apperntly hammering the keys at the same time. I did not know that you acknowledged damaging the cylinder per a re-load. I wish to clarify my position. If you admit damage was done by you, I will respect a reasonable repair, etc. In all respects, I would never shoot this gun again. Frame stretching, etc. You may request a new replacement, your call. Perhaps S&W may surprise you. I just can never get over their lack of responsibility on the blown up forcing cone. Yes, your fault w/ but their QC apparently has not changed since my experience. Wanted to clarify. 1010 -
I guess honesty sometimes stings. I wonder if you fellows remember the days when the warranty for all gun manufacturers was something like "one year against defects in materials and workmanship". Taurus, I believe, started the "lifetime guarantee". Slowly the other companies followed. Today, expectations seem to be unquestioned repair/replacement against all eventualities, realistic or not.
Sure--there is no excuse for poor craftsmanship. That is the part of bwa's story that I wholeheartedly agree with. I too can relate a horror story of S&W service, but like so many "it was years ago". A friend sent in a revolver just to be reblued. After 6 mo. he inquired about it and they said they couldn't find it. After 2 years they sent him a new one. However, I'll bet that I own more S&Ws than all of you fellows (respondents to this thread) put together, and I've never had a bad one. This would include a pair of .45 ACP Mountain Guns purchased last year that are pretty close to perfection.
But, I still maintain that all companies and their reputations are at the mercy of their employees; and that some employees are better than others. I find it impossible to believe that S&W has one man in the repair dept. (I should turn in an employment application, maybe?--Naw--Isn't that Ted Kennedy's State?)
O.K.-maybe comparison to "the coffee lady" was a little harsh. Afterall, she got millions and you won't; although, if the gun had failed due to the overload, and you'd lost an eye, I'm sure you'd try. Remember the guy that shot himself in the foot a number of years ago playing "fastdraw" with a Ruger Blackhawk, got 2 1/2 million out of Ruger in court and caused redesign and creation of the New Model Blackhawk? Perhaps S&W didn't make you such a bad gun afterall.
I'm glad that you understand the concept of "Personal Responsibility". So many don't. If you want to write the NEW C.E.O. of S&W go right ahead. They're trying to turn over a new leaf and dig themselves out of the hole the old management put them in. He may be eager to please. I still counsel patience.
What the heck! This post has gotten so long anyway that I might as well see what you folks think about one of the only two seriously dissatisfied customers I've had in 20 years of gunsmithing business. Are there any parallels here? Probably not. Offered, then, for your entertainment. Elderly fellow (like me) enters with an Enfield No.2 Mk. 1 .38 S&W revolver which he has owned since the '50s. He has shot it extensively over the years to the point where the firing pin has worn out and will no longer reliably fire the cartridges. He had relegated it to the nightstand home defense gun years earlier, but now has suddenly realized that such a gun should be 100% reliable. As an aside, my Dad never liked Enfields and Webleys, comparing them to 1912 vintage houses with the plumbing on the outside of the walls. Anyway, can I fix it? Sure! His is worn out beyond repair. Must be millions of hammers around, as they made a lot of them and they are all surplus. WRONG! Called every parts house I know of and ran up a very large phone bill. Then, inspiration! As some of you know, after WW II the English decided that they really didn't need a .455 revolver, and asked Webley to produce a .38. Webley, being Webley, fooled around for years and never came up with a true production model; to the point that even the imperturbable Brits became exasperated and snatched the project away and gave it to the Royal Arsenal at Enfield. They came up with the Enfield No. 2 Mk.1. This had a thumbpiece hammer. Thus stimulated, Webley got their act together and produced the Webley Mk.IV. Too late; the Enfield got the nod and the Webley became substitute standard. Later, the British Tankers complained about the hammer spur of their Enfield No. 2 Mk.1s catching on the hatch when climbing out, so the No 2 Mk.1* was born, which had no hammer spur and consequently was made double action only, whereas the Mk.1s and Webleys were single/double action. So, if agreeable to the customer, why not install a Mk.1* hammer in his Mk.1? Of course, thereafter it will be a double action only; but I called him and told him all about it, and he agreed. This was another page in my education, as when I got a Mk.1* hammer I found that it was not a "drop in". I had to clamp his hammer onto the new hammer and, using it as a pattern, file and stone in some notches that weren't there, remove some excess metal, etc. When I was done it worked perfectly as a double action only, and I felt kind of proud of the job, as something that didn't work before now did. I called him up, he came and got it, tried it out (fired all six shots) and left seemingly very happy. Two months later he phones me and says that he's bring it back and wants the proper hammer put in (unobtainable at that time) because his wife, who is 68, doesn't have the strength in her hands to pull the double action trigger and needs to thumb cock it. I didn't even know that he was married; but he insists that I should have known, and should have made it "right for her". O.K.--bring it back. The search starts again. Big phone bill. No Mk.1 hammer. Two weeks later (only!) he calls and demands why to know why his gun isn't ready. Other gunsmiths could have had it ready by now! I suggest that he drive over and pick it up. He does, and informs me that he'll never be back. I inform him that never will be too soon. My voice was raised. He exits rapidly. Guess my warranty service just isn't up to today's standards. Best wishes to all of you.0
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